You Make the Call #30

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oldtimer
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You Make the Call #30

Postby oldtimer » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:53 pm

Just wanting to revive an old topic for some of those referees that liked it. I don't know if I'll do more, but this one was too funny for me to ignore.

Ball Under or Contra?

https://vimeo.com/364547776

wplover
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby wplover » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:49 pm

I'd love to hear the opinions on this! Depending on the ref this gets called either way.

rhtitanpolo
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby rhtitanpolo » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:24 am

Ball under

Non referee here, I'm thinking it's a 50/50 ball, as the offensive player is going to control it, simultaneously defense gets ball under without fouling the player.

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fanofpolo
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby fanofpolo » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:51 pm

That's a tough one. I didn't like the fact that the defender had a really guilty look after coming over the top. I think the "ball underwater" would be the easy call and the "not playing the ball" (arm around neck) would be the more difficult. What had being going on during the game may have some impact as well.

jhwp
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby jhwp » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:56 pm

White is attacking initially, and blue never took full possession before white player (#11?) forced ball under. It isn't even clear if blue was in contact with the ball when white started the dunk. Isn't that an easy call for blue?

oldtimer
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby oldtimer » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:33 pm

One point to consider is that referees are being told this year to call the ball under on whoever has the ball actually in their hand. For example, if a goalie reaches out to a ball and pulls it under to prevent an attacker from getting it (and presumably scoring a goal), the call is a penalty foul against the goalie. Likewise, if a ball lands in front of an attacker and the defender reaches out and puts it under - that is a ball under on the *defender*, and the attacker should retain possession.

So in this video, the ball is in white's possession. It is passed in to a driver being defended. Who puts his hand on it and puts it under water? Does the fact that the attacker puts his arm behind the defender's back and pushes him under water constitute a foul or not?

retiredguy
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby retiredguy » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:18 pm

I'm not a referee, but seems like most referees are going to give this ball to the dark team here almost no matter what. The ball is lost by the white team and dark is about to control the ball when the white team makes one last effort to get the ball by reaching over the top of the dark team.

I'm not totally sure I love the fact that the referees sometime ignore the rules because "the other team makes a bad play" but it seems to happen a lot. "Well I'm not going to reward a bad pass", etc....

I'd vote to bring these videos back Oldtimer!

oldtimer
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby oldtimer » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:26 pm

Okay, here is my take. Given that the ball under call is against the player who actually put the ball under that would be the dark team. The white player number 11 pushes the dark player number 8 under the water who is holding the ball. The rule says that you cannot sync a player who is not holding the ball. Since number 8 is holding the ball there is no foul against White, so white retains possession.

What oh, you may ask was the actual call? It was ball under on dark and white retained possession.

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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby tomj » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:04 am

Interesting post.

This actual application of the rules seems straight-forward -- the Blue player jumps in front of white to take the ball, grabs it on top, and is sunk by the white player. So ball under on Blue, award the ball to White. In fact, technically the shot clock should be reset, since Blue must have possession in order to take the ball under.

OT tells us this is what was called. I imagine he raised the issue because that situation it is not often actually called that way.

Frequently, when a defensive player makes a steal (or the offense gives it away) and the ball is then forced underwater, the ball is awarded to the defense no matter who actually had the hand on top. The rationale is around the "flow of the game" .. the offense gave it away, everyone is expecting to go the other way, so go the other way. And it seems to be called that way more frequently as the level of play gets higher.

I have no opinion one way or the other, it is just an observation.

oldtimer
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby oldtimer » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:30 pm

The real reason I posted it is because I found it very amusing the way that the white team put the ball under. As I was reviewing the video my very first thought was why it wasn't a contra foul because it happened so quick I miss that the ball went under. When I backed it up and reviewed it it made me laugh. Seems like an easy one to get wrong on several levels

tomj
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Re: You Make the Call #30

Postby tomj » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:49 pm

I have looked at it a few more times, and tried to put myself onto the deck. The more I see it, the more I think it likely I would have called a foul on white and awarded the ball to blue.

OT - please do more of these posts! I enjoy thinking about them.

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