Let's get real

USA Water Polo Olympic Development Program
Thebear
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Let's get real

Postby Thebear » Tue May 05, 2009 2:47 am

Guy Baker I am wishing you a good year, but you better get real, tryouts for the zones travel teams for the zone championships happened this weekend, and what most of us new people saw was that the team from last year did not really have to tryout, there were all kept, even thought we saw girls that were better these last couple of weeks. So your whole speech on that no position is, guaranteed and you would have to work to hold your existing spot, who are you kidding. I think the new additional girls are there to keep the old existing team from being lazy, disrespectful and give them some sort of work ethics.

I think it is ashamed that the coach had to give a lot of these existing girl’s talks about the above subjects. Mr. Baker you are already fighting an upward battle from years past, but I think what happened this weekend was just plain disturbing.

I am not sad for my daughter because I know where she stands, but for those other very good players who were pasted up to hold on to the old players was shooting your program in the foot. My best wishes, I am not sure where your program is going to grow from here when this comes out.

It is also sad that on the last day of travel team tryouts, two of your coaches had prior engagements. Maybe paying the coaches to be there, like we have to pay to be there would be a better idea and a little more consistent. Maybe other parents, and players are scared to give feedback, but I am not. So are you serious here or not?

Thanks to one of the Coastal coaches from I think LA water polo, nice job, I don’t even think he is one of the regular coaches, but if he is a Kudos for him. :sad: My first impression was favorable, my second will it's in writing now.

wpk
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Re: Let's get real

Postby wpk » Tue May 05, 2009 10:56 am

I think you are a little off-base. It appears from the list of girls making the travel squads that there are some new faces on the teams, thus they obviously had the opportunity to compete for spots.

On the Girls Youth team for Coastal for example, they have 4 players who were not on the travel squad last year. Thats almost 30% new team members. And when I stopped by the scrimmages on Sunday, both coaches from Coastal were there having a good time with their squad.

But I agree, this is a hard time to get the coaches out, with high school swimming going on and a big tournament for the younger girls happening in San Diego. Not too many coaches can get out of those paid commitments to handle their volunteer commitments. Maybe we do need to pay the coaches a stipend.

Thebear
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Re: Let's get real

Postby Thebear » Tue May 05, 2009 11:44 am

Did they compete for older player slot or were the slot open and needed to be filled? Yes, I was talking about the youth, I think the Coastal Team did do a better job then the So Pac Zone. I would love to see the coaches paid. Since, Guy Baker is trying to make this one step above the club teams does it make sense that the coaches do not get a stipend ?

Rafael Ruano
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Re: Let's get real

Postby Rafael Ruano » Tue May 05, 2009 1:38 pm

The coaches are slated to recieve a small stipend this year.

While I was not at the tryouts you were at, having been a part of the women's national team selections at the zone and national levels for the last decade, the complaint that the majority of the prior year's team got selected again is heard every year. The problem is that, while the last 3-5 days of training/tryouts are not and should not be the ONLY criteria used to select athletes onto these teams. The reality is that athletes that played on the zone or national team the year before have been able to show the coaches what they can do at increasingly higher levels of play (or, in the alternative, have failed to do so and that works against them).

The other reality is that tryouts (and most onlookers look at the scrimmages with a mixed bag of 20-40 athletes) can be seen very differently by different people. I have overseen tryouts where a girl scores the most goals in the 2 hours of scrimmages, but she does not make the team because (take your pick) a) she was scoring only against athletes that were in the bottom of the group trying out and disappeared when defended by girls in the top of the group, b) did not pass to open teammates and simply took more shots than anyone else, c) scored on the weakest goalies with relatively poor shots and did not score on the better goalies with the same shot selection, d) failed to play to the same level on defense, e) counterattack, or f) 6x5 or 5x6 situations.

Lastly, coaches do make mistakes and even top coaches often disagree about the last couple of spots on a team. Having said that, if the only issue is that you or anyone else disagrees about 1-2 selections (the 13th and 14th players), then you agree with the other 12 players selected. That is actually a pretty good match and is just sort of the way things work.

As to coaches not being there and so on, I agree that is not ideal, but that simply requires a little more advanced planning to ensure a minimum number of conflicts.

I think that the ODP has a lot of potential but there are some issues it will need to sift through over the next year or so. Disagreement over the last couple of spots on a travel team is simply going to always be there...what needs to definitely be righted is the PERCEPTION (if it exists) that there was a double standard. As the ODP moves a more year round training phase, it will be tend to reward consistent, high level training athletes rather than those that stand out in a scrimmage situation (a good thing in my opinion) but, even then, the expectations for ALL athletes needs to be the same (on that I certainly agree).

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Re: Let's get real

Postby Moderator » Tue May 05, 2009 1:39 pm

Maybe we do need to pay the coaches a stipend.


WHOA...the ODP coaches ARE paid a stipend from USA Water Polo...somewhere in the area of $3,000 plus transportation, housing and per diem when there.

Lets be careful pinning accusations on the ODP program without researching the allegations.

Otto
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Re: Let's get real

Postby Otto » Tue May 05, 2009 3:00 pm

Rafael: Thanks for your perspective. You can always be counted on for reasonable and fair comments based on experience. I've had my questions about ODP at times, but your experience is very helpful.

Thesita
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Re: Let's get real

Postby Thesita » Tue May 05, 2009 3:39 pm

Phase 1 stipend is $600. Also, the reason there are so many that remake the team is that they are the ones who perform the skills and tend to be competeing against the same people each year for the spots. Some not chosen improve but so do the same ones that were chosen from before. If you do not make it one year generally you must improve your skills at a higher rate each year to get on the team the next year. Each year there is a core from before usually, but there is also new blood. The coaches do not just say, "They made it last year so they're on." That only really goes for the kids already on the National teams and they are still required to train with ODP. Those players will make the cut anyway though based on skill. They also are the ones working hard and helping the others who tryout. And the coaches are helped by them b/c those players actullay have more time spent with the National coaches so far.

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Doc
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Re: Let's get real

Postby Doc » Tue May 05, 2009 4:10 pm

Thebear,

You may wish to read the following article which comments on your topic about whether tryouts can be fair:

http://waterpoloplanet.com/HTML_Hunkler ... youts.html

Doc

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SkipShot
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Re: Let's get real

Postby SkipShot » Tue May 05, 2009 9:40 pm

Ok.........Let's get real! It is impossible to please everybody no matter how fair and impartial the system is made. Thats as real as it gets. I think we have chosen the some of the best Coastal California squads ever assembled.

8)

proudpop
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Re: Let's get real

Postby proudpop » Wed May 06, 2009 12:47 am

SkipShot wrote:Ok.........Let's get real! It is impossible to please everybody no matter how fair and impartial the system is made. Thats as real as it gets. I think we have chosen the some of the best Coastal California squads ever assembled.

8)


Well said, x2

Thebear
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Re: Let's get real

Postby Thebear » Wed May 06, 2009 9:54 am

Rafeal your points are well taken, I myself do not just look at goals, but the overall players, and if it was the last two spots I would not have written this blog, I would say the program was heading in a positive position. I was not talking about the coastal team, I personal think that team was a very good match. But I see your points and can see the value of the round year training. Thank-you doc for the link on fairness. As far as the stipend goes someone please clarify this point, because the coaches told us they are volunteers, and do not get paid. If I read your post correctly you were talking about future stipend, I am talking about stipend for the ODP coaches not the National coaches. So Moderator are you telling me that all the coaches that are doing the ODP from the zones if they go to the zone championships they will be getting $3000.00. Where is this posted?

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Re: Let's get real

Postby Moderator » Wed May 06, 2009 11:13 am

The ODP manual is available as a download on the USAWP website.

Each ODP head coach in each zone (48 coaches) gets a stipend.

For the 2009 season (1/2 Year)
From the 2009 ODP Handbook 2009 ODP Expenses (January 1st - December 31st)
ODP Coaches $57,600 48 Head Coaches x $1,200

The stipend doubles for 2010.

momview
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Re: Let's get real

Postby momview » Wed May 06, 2009 12:07 pm

If I am not mistaken, the 4 new members on the Coastal travel team were needed because 4 players were invited to play with the Junior national team. Watching the tryouts, it seemed pretty much like the team was picked from day 1. The majority of those girls had been playing together for the past year. Trying to shine, scrimmaging with girls of varying levels, against a good group of players that had played together and knew the coach was difficult. That said, my daughter learned alot, met some very nice kids and said she would try out again even though she didn't make it this year. Having Guy Baker come, run drills, and talk to them was a highlight for her. Telling the girls to show confidence and believe in themselves really motivated my daughter. What is interesting is the formation of the So-Cal team. Are they just the 12th team made up to make the tournament scheduling easier? Is there any possibility those kids have any chance of making the national team? Someone asked who the coach was. And they didn't know! And those kids will not get to play together before the tournament. Sounds like a costly scrimmage for those 14.

Thesita
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Re: Let's get real

Postby Thesita » Wed May 06, 2009 12:45 pm

The past years there was no stipend but they said this year phase 1 will be 600. No stipend has been paid yet. 600 really is volunteer work though. Costs, depending, are about 200 just in gas for some or more maybe. Time is 20-30 hours plus driving and organizing and the tournament. It is volunteer work. Also, no equipment has been provided so many of the club coaches are using their own. Pools are paid for though.

ValleyPolo
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Re: Let's get real

Postby ValleyPolo » Wed May 06, 2009 1:07 pm

On top of that, the $1200 listed is just for head coaches - maybe they share. I didn't see anywhere that it is going to be doubled. So is it $1200 total for the staff for the 80 hours of training in phase 2 as well? I wish the coaches got paid more - it would continue to attract coaching talent - but I think the ones that are there are doing a great job for the first time through this.
Last edited by ValleyPolo on Wed May 06, 2009 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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