95U ODP Tryouts

USA Water Polo Olympic Development Program
aquadad
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95U ODP Tryouts

Postby aquadad » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:37 pm

Hi all;
Does anyone have any idea what happened to the 95U ODP tryouts? Every time I talk to someone they have been pushed back another month or 2. It was my understanding that they were going to put together a cadet team by now, but there is noting posted on the zone or the US site. Any information would be appreciated.

skipitin
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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby skipitin » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:16 pm

With a lot of the ODP info now starting to surface on the USA waterpolo website....it is unclear if the plan is to keep the same age groups e.g., 92U, 94U, etc....does anyone know if the plan is to have the 2 year age group shift from year to year (e.g., 93U, 95U in 2011??

KJE
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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby KJE » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:42 am

It's posted under phase 3. Some people seem to be having trouble reading the page. Hopefully it will be fixed tomorrow. In the meantime here is the brief answer:

age groups for 2010-11
94u, 96, 97u

national team coaches are being hired for 96/97 group

96s have a spring tryout
97u have a spring tryout
training starts in the Fall

94u start training in the Fall. Phase 2 kids are invited back, new kids will be evaluated in the first 2 training sessions. The same process as this year.

Tryout dates are already set and should be posted on USWP zone homepage. 2010-11 ODP training dates are set for the most part and should be posted on USWP zone home pages soon, if not already.

poloplaya2
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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby poloplaya2 » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:42 pm

From what i can tell from the posts and websites...there is a 94U group and a planned 96U group and a planned 97U group. This leaves the 95U group with more limited opportunities than the year ahead and the 2 years behind. Is there consideration for this in the makeup/criteria for the 94U teams? It seems that if the program continues as is, only a few outstanding 95Us will be able to experience the program, while the groups above and below will get a lot more opportunities. Hopefully this will be acknowledged and any strategic plans would try to accomodate this anomaly. I know there has been plenty of discussion of this wrt 93Us, but the 95's appear to be headed down a path towards extinction in the ODP program, and these girls and boys are current 8th/9th graders, who would be key to a successful overall program.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby KJE » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:47 pm

Follow the age group chart that was posted on one of the threads. You will see that the 95s have a long program. They are included with the 94s this year, and in Phase 3 and will be there own age group the following year. The born 95s will be well taken care of as they are the junior team in 2015. To the question about tryouts, they are already in an established age group right now with the 94s. Any 95 in phase 2 will be invited back to phase 3. Any 95 who wishes to participate in phase 3 and did not participate in phase 2 can attend the first 12 hours of training in phase 3 and make the training team. I'm confident that the 95s will get a fair shake in the process. Understand that they will always be competing with 94s. 2012 YTH Worlds is 94 and under, which is a big part of the reason why they are together now. Based on the FINA competitions, the 95s are not at the top of an age group until 2015, so it makes sense for them to be competing with kids who are 94 and 96.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby Moderator » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:00 pm

Here is the age group chart again
Birth_Years_Eligibility.jpg
Birth_Years_Eligibility.jpg (23.79 KiB) Viewed 2538 times

minnow
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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby minnow » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:04 am

So what is the plan for the 95's? I saw a response that said that there were few that did tryouts. A coach commented that this has been discussed but I couldn't find it. Since they are always at the bottom of the bracket, I think they have become very discouraged.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby Otto » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:23 pm

http://usawaterpolo.org/SingleNews/11-0 ... fHome.aspx

Here is the Cadet roster. It includes some 1996 birthdays, even the the chart listed above suggests that this year's 17U would have 1995 birthdays. Perhaps I'm misreading the chart, but this cadet team lists everything from freshmen to seniors in high school.

The 95s have been shuffled many times. The explanation is the changing international age groups.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby KJE » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:04 am

Everything related to ODP and the Cadet national teams can be found on the ODP website.
https://sites.google.com/a/usawaterpolo ... ogram/home

The youngest player on the Cadet team would have just finished 8th grade and the oldest player would have just finished their junior year in highschool. Born 95s were eligible to be selected by the Youth team coaches, as were 94s, 96s, 97s etc.

One of the additions this year is a born 95U National Team. We are equally concerned about the development of both the born 95 and 97 athletes and as such will add teams specific to these born years. There are no details to share at this time. They may be published in the September ODP newsletter. All athletes should tryout as normal.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby coyote » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:36 pm

As the voice of USA ODP, KJE would you share your thoughts about Doc Hunkler's article on the homepage and Ricardo Azevedo's plan for USA Water Polo Development that Joan reposted earlier in the month from an interview in 2007.

The ODP Is Not Screwed Up; It Is Broken New 07/15 by Doc Hunkler
Only the CEO and Board of Directors Can Do Something About the USAWP ODP!
http://www.waterpoloplanet.com/HTML_Hun ... roken.html

Interview with Ricardo Azevedo by Joan Gould
Coaching Water Polo: It's Time to Trash the Cookie Cutter
http://www.waterpoloplanet.com/HTML_Joa ... evedo.html

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby Moderator » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:28 pm

coyote wrote:As the voice of USA ODP, KJE would you share your thoughts about Doc Hunkler's article on the homepage and Ricardo Azevedo's plan for USA Water Polo Development that Joan reposted earlier in the month from an interview in 2007.

The ODP Is Not Screwed Up; It Is Broken New 07/15 by Doc Hunkler
Only the CEO and Board of Directors Can Do Something About the USAWP ODP!
http://www.waterpoloplanet.com/HTML_Hun ... roken.html

Interview with Ricardo Azevedo by Joan Gould
Coaching Water Polo: It's Time to Trash the Cookie Cutter
http://www.waterpoloplanet.com/HTML_Joa ... evedo.html


This months interview with Ricardo Azevedo is not a 2007 reprint, it is a new interview that Joan did with Ricardo when he was back in the US last month.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby KJE » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:02 am

I actually have nothing to say specifically about either article. Everyone has an opinion, and I respect each of them. Despite the fact that I have posted information on this message board as to where you can find facts, people still choose not to go look. I have great respect for Doc, Joan and Ricardo, however as far as I know not one of them has attended an ODP training, ODP Evaluation Camp, ODP Regional Championship, ODP Coaches Summit, or the National Training Selection Camp. Many assumptions are made about we do and mostly don't do. We aren't claiming to be the "Best Fundamentals Camp in the Whole World" like other programs are. The skills are simple, basic and proven. The philosophy is created by coaches and players who have contributed over a 20 year period and still contribute. The program was created by coaches and players, not the CEO or board of USWP. The program continues to grow so there are plenty of people who have bought into the value of what it has to offer. My house is a house that eats, sleeps and breathes water polo, at the detriment of our own family stability. Buy in, don't buy in... to each his own. I encourage every kid and coach out there to be open minded to learning.

The Olympic Development Program is a long term program,not a quick fix it, not a perfect program, but a program with coaches and players striving to provide more. People like Doc and Joan work hard to keep all of us working in the best interest of our sport. I appreciate it. Questions and concerns encourage reflection. Thanks for the reflection.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby Joan Gould-Bertocci » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:48 am

KJE wrote:I actually have nothing to say specifically about either article. Everyone has an opinion, and I respect each of them. Despite the fact that I have posted information on this message board as to where you can find facts, people still choose not to go look. I have great respect for Doc, Joan and Ricardo, however as far as I know not one of them has attended an ODP training, ODP Evaluation Camp, ODP Regional Championship, ODP Coaches Summit, or the National Training Selection Camp. Many assumptions are made about we do and mostly don't do. We aren't claiming to be the "Best Fundamentals Camp in the Whole World" like other programs are. The skills are simple, basic and proven. The philosophy is created by coaches and players who have contributed over a 20 year period and still contribute. The program was created by coaches and players, not the CEO or board of USWP. The program continues to grow so there are plenty of people who have bought into the value of what it has to offer. My house is a house that eats, sleeps and breathes water polo, at the detriment of our own family stability. Buy in, don't buy in... to each his own. I encourage every kid and coach out there to be open minded to learning.

The Olympic Development Program is a long term program,not a quick fix it, not a perfect program, but a program with coaches and players striving to provide more. People like Doc and Joan work hard to keep all of us working in the best interest of our sport. I appreciate it. Questions and concerns encourage reflection. Thanks for the reflection.


For the record:
3 years ago, I (like Kim) quit my very lucrative day job to administer and support Water Polo Academy- the ODP referee training program of ODP. As part of that support, I paid my own way to travel to California for ODP National Championships and paid the admission fee for 40+ referees in training to attend the championships for on deck input from Loren, Don Holbrook, John Montrella and other senior referees. Via Water Polo Academy, I was very closely connected with ODP (referee training) until last year when ODP took the training over themselves.

I have no problem with ODP taking the training ovrr-it is a huge task, but the quality result has been a major step backwards.

I will let each of you ask referees you know how effective the “new and improved” ODP referee training program is now. Kim is not involved in that.

I think that Kim and James Lathrop have done an exceptional job particularly in the communication and organizational field. I am sure they have contributed equally in the technical field. It is clear that MAJOR strides have been made in the past 4 years.

Overall, I think that ODP is working much better in California than it is outside. Here in the Midwest for instance, ODP hopefuls in Ohio often get only a few days notice of ODP training – and they have an 8 hour drive to Chicago. Parents cannot always drop everything (including a day of school for the kids and day of work for parents) to travel to Chicago where hotel rooms are $200+ per night and parking over $50 per day. The last ODP training camp for boys in San Diego ended early and 4 boys (aged 14) from the NE and SE were dropped off at San Diego airport to wait 9 hours for their flight back to the East Coast…alone, with no supervision. The lack of concern for kids outside California is not improving and parents are justifiably concerned. How many of you would be happy to have your 14 year old kids dropped off at NY’s Laguardia airport alone to wait 9 hours for a flight back to Orange County? If it were my child, I would be thermonuclear. Again-this is not the fault of Kim or James Lathrop.

My current concern about ODP (other than the referee training program) is about its feasibility outside California where distances are horrific and available coaching staff less than world class. ODP is sending a coach from Pennsylvania down to coach 18u boys in Florida this season- nothing against the Pennsylvania coach but if ODP is going to spend all that money on air fares, why not send one of the top California coaches out instead? Those of us on the outside see that decision as a clear indication that zones outside California are considered to be solely the checkbook for ODP. Is this true? I absolutely doubt that is the intention but perceptions matter.

I am not personally a fan of cookie cutter type training programs for coaching kids but am not a professional coach so will emphatically state that I am not qualified to make that judgment.

There are some very good people involved in ODP who are making a big difference. Any improvement made is progress and there has been much progress made thanks to the efforts of exceptionally good people like Kim. The USA is a large country and a truly national program that works equally well in all places will take some time.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby KJE » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:43 pm

Odp has had 3 seasons.

Attending an Odp championship in the first year is not like attending anything we have done since then. You don't like what we teach, come to a training and actually observe what is being taught and how it's being taught. The program has radically changed. I am not going to discuss the referee school. I don't know much about it and it is run separately from what I do.

Regarding outside of CA... again, facts are relevant here. Joan you bring up Ohio but you have no idea what we have been doing in Ohio. This year we started satellite training specifically in the MW. Illinois/MO, Michigan/Ohio, so kids no longer have to travel so far to get access. I personally emailed with coaches in Ohio about hiring them for ODP so training could be held in Ohio. It's been a process. I hired for the first time a coach from Missouri and we have coaches from Indiana expressing interest for the future. Without ODP the several kids from Out of CA who attended the NTSC and June camps never would have had that opportunity. 5/27 Out of CA kids made their respectice Youth and Cadet girls teams. How many years has it been since that many made a team in a single year? Doing ODP does not guarantee you will make a National Team - it gives you an opportunity to try - which was something that didn't exist when I lived on the East Coast. Who you knew was what you needed to get any kind of opportunity. How it works outside of CA is debatable, but as I watch the MW double in size this next year, I am not sure I believe ODP doesn't work outside of CA. More is needed outside of Ca, and we are working on that. In addition, the calendar dates for 2011-12 are already posted on the website so not knowing when ODP starts or when the training dates are is a thing of the past. The problems that are complained about are old - some still exist, many do not. Logistical mistakes were made this year, apologized for and guaranteed to never happen again. Everything you need to know is on the ODP Website. https://sites.google.com/a/usawaterpolo ... ogram/home.

Cookie cutter programs - every major club in the country teaches their athletes the same language and same skills from the youngest to the oldest. Young kids move from one age group to the next understanding what every coach wants because they speak the same and have learned the same basic skills. ODP does the exact same thing so when kids do enter the pipeline the National Team coaches can continue to move forward. So when kids move from one age group to the next, we can add new elements to the training. So a Youth team player can be pulled up to the JNT on call or a JNT player to the SNT on call, without a hiccup - why doesn't this make sense? ODP is a National Team program which focuses on fundamental skills. We don't spend time teaching fakes, we spend time teaching kids how to draw a foul, pressure pass, cut off to create an advantage. If you have a better way to teach how to pressure pass, share it. The manual has input from people all over the country and in every walk of life. Kids have plenty of opportunity to learn how to fake, submarine to create an advantage, and so on. Are there other ways to teach fundamentals, sure - but is learning to draw a foul an essential skill - definitely. Yes, ODP is cookie cutter, it's simple - 200 coaches, 1500 athletes. There is accountability to make sure everyone is learning - learning a useful tool. Spinning to front at 2m is a useful tool; learning to hold a side at center is a useful tool; learning to do a long draw fake - of which in my lifetime I have only seen one person use this skill, effectively - is fun, great if you can do it, but I wouldn't consider it a useful tool. We encourage creativity and rely on the club teams and camps to foster it. ODP is 32 hours of training- everything you need to know will not be taught in 32 hours. It's one opportunity in a country that provides many.

Everyone who is involved in the technical water polo side of ODP works hard, and they are all good people. It's not just me - it's Guy Baker, James Lathrop, Anne Laurence, Sean Nolan, Kirk Everist, John Abdou, Natalie Golda, Megan Hernandez, Jason Lynch, Derek Ellingson, Sandy Nitta, Kyle Utsumi, Brett Ormsby, Kyle Kopp, Heather Moody, Erika Figge - in addition to all of our coaches. This group named is an exceptional group of people with a long history in this sport. Their credibility speaks for itself. I no longer feel the need to defend ODP - the program speaks for itself. I've admitted problems and we work through them. I appreciate the people at American Water Polo who challenge the process and call to action a better organization, and for me, a better program.

The 2011-12 changes for ODP are on the website - https://sites.google.com/a/usawaterpolo ... nitiatives. All information related to 2011-12 - https://sites.google.com/a/usawaterpolo ... p-2011-12; Calendars - https://sites.google.com/a/usawaterpolo ... ast-region (NE girls just recently had an update and will be readded)

I don't care to post publicly any more, so I encourage people to email me if they want clarification. Things can be confusing at times and they are ever evolving so I am happy to answer questions. Thank you for all you do Joan. Like myself and Kirk, I know you have made choices to work hard for your sport and I appreciate it.

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Re: 95U ODP Tryouts

Postby coyote » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:41 pm

You must be getting some heat from Guy Baker. ODP admin too busy? So many parents/players need clarification and do not want to step forward for fear of asking the wrong questions and annoying those powers that can select or deselect players. Parents are frustrated and feel this ODP pipeline is just a poloonzi scheme.
This is the point of this board since USAWP does not provide open communication with it membership families.
When you say that the ODP admin is too busy, why would Baker submit an application for the Harvard Westlake job that Lynn recently vacated?

Apologizes to incorrectly stating the interview date. There is a date on the top.
Joan Gould
Water Polo Planet
02/01/07

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