So Cal Regional tournament results

USA Water Polo Olympic Development Program
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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby Doc » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:41 pm

deepwater,

It sounds to me as if what you are saying is the entities choosing players in the ODP are human and we all know humans make errors. Any time selections are based on subjective criteria there is going to be mistakes and errors made. It seems to me what we should be doing is not criticizing the mistakes and errors but we should be discussing how we can best hold the mistakes and errors to a minimum.

My thoughts on this subject can be found in the following article:

http://www.waterpoloplanet.com/HTML_Hunkler_pages/74_Fair_Tryouts.html

Doc

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby deepwater » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:03 pm

Couldn't agree with you more Doc, I enjoyed reading the article posted last year. By pointing out the obvious will only help for the future, in every instance.

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby wpwp » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:10 pm

I am new to this board. But I do have a few questions. First I thought there were only supposed to be 30 players picked for the the Southern CA. but there looks like there were 33 for each team. I would assume that from the other two regionals there will be 23 players picked. Maybe my math is wrong. Also about making practices in the Southern zone the practices were not only during the High School season they were on the same days as games.The practices are 4 1/2 hours away so there in no way to make the practices. The zone coordinator tried to do the right thing but his hands were tied. Also I understand that a girl got hurt during the most recent pratice and now her High School team has no chance on making it to the State finals. What a shame. Why on the face of the earth would there be practices during High School season?

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby deepwater » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:39 pm

KJE-Kim,

Why did you remove your last post? That post by far was one of the best, most honest posts I've read. Please repost it.

If you are going to look into things, it would be great to find-out why some kids didn't need to attend the training but made the team. I heard a very noble deed about Jason Lynch. There was a player that was frustrated and quit ODP. Jason went to this players house and told him that if he came back he would make his team regardless of the time missed. He's a great player and in-fact is on Jason's final ODP team.

keepingitpolo
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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby keepingitpolo » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:40 pm

I have been a critical as anyone about the ODP process in the past. It was a joke and everyone knew it, the coaches were not qualified and there was no training, they were there to protect the select few.

I have a younger child that went through the process this time and the difference was remarkable. Was there still favoritism? Maybe in some cases but no where near what it was in the past.

The most important thing for me as a parent of a kid in the process, was the training worth the price? I can say quite emphatically yes. The training was great and we viewed it as a sort of long term camp. The coaches were great and my child learned each time they went, they met other kids and had a fun time at the tournament. Making the next level was not our judge of sucess at this point.

Ultimately, the kids that grow up and make the future Olympic Team, some will come from this program and some will be more home grown through the club, high school and college route, in the end, the truly talented will rise to the top.

I am happy my child participated, they are a better player for it, thanks to the coaches

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby KJE » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:45 pm

I deleted it because I wanted to get some answers before I continued to post.

There were two kids who had special circumstances. The ODP staff made an error and didn't rectify until late in the process. One of them did start attending training, both were doing the trial series and attending training. Similar to the girls, I do know that for a couple of teams attendance was a general issue. Seniors were missing for recruiting trips, club games, etc. With the changes in the ODP calendar for next year, nothing will conflict with HS. Girls ODP will basically be Sept to Dec and boys Jan to March. Chigginson you have a legitimate gripe about the process, and that's clearly not what we want to happen. Things come up and the general public isn't privy to why.

We have been aware of the concerns related to the 94 boys. The subject is not being ignored. Guy and James have addressed it and are continuing to address it. We've talked a lot about the recruiting issue and we have included a statement in our expectations about professionalism.

The selection criteria is clear, but the process not so much. And to deepwaters earlier post I do apologize to anyone who feels the way he does about the process. I haven't read Docs article, but I will. Our next big task in ODP is really mentoring the coaches. Teaching them how to teach, teaching them how to evaluate and how to provide feedback. For everyone, keep in mind that this is even more of a process for the boys side. The girls, still with our concerns, are much farther along. The boys are just coming around to this process.

I'm not surprised people don't completely agree with the selections, this is just part of it. But I don't want people walking away feeling like deepwater. We have a conference call tomorrow and will be discussing all of this. For my part, I know actions speak louder than words. As always, thank you for your honesty.

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby hole-d » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:17 pm

[code][/code]Thanks KJE for your efforts and dialogue in this forum. It sounds like you are receptive to the feedback on the processes, which is good because it is really one of the only ways right now to provide feedback.

I'm glad to see the sensitivity to the recruiting topic. I think all that most players and parents want is a fair process and selections shouldn't be attempts to select potential/current players from your school or club. The water polo community is small, and anyone with responsibility for selecting players for a training team or to the national camp will undoubtedly be making decisions on players he has coached/will coach. That means tough decisions, but it goes with the territory. Hopefully, the kids in the regional championships are being given a fair look and one not overly biased in this way. This pertains to club affiliation, current/future HS, and personal ties.

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby HMMMM » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:06 pm

[quote="KJE"]This is a copy of an email I copied that was sent from Guy Baker, to the entire staff, and from a coach to his training team.

"Below is a summary of what what we have worked on the past 8 trainings. These are the skills and key points that the coaches will be evaluating specifically on Sunday........
Order of Importance.........
1-Defense
Gain Ball Side Position by Attack Section
Maintain Ball Side Position

How can you say defense is the most important when you give an award for most goals scored? Are you kidding me? It's like giving an award in baseball to the one who scores the most runs. All I saw was poor shots and showing off...and then those kids get selected. No wonder USA cannot compete at the international level!

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby deepwater » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:27 pm

KJE wrote:And to deepwaters earlier post I do apologize to anyone who feels the way he does about the process.


KJE, truly no need for apologies here. I think you are one of the first ODP officials to come out and acknowledge the truth. Thank you!

With all honesty right back, I don't feel it per-say : I see it, hear it and live it. I take the time to listen to the new parents and their kids the kids and parents that have made the trip upwards each and every time. The kids and parents outside the Southern California area and the seasoned professionals (coaches, refs, evaluators).

So KJE, don't apologize, let us all know what we can do to make this a better experience for all!

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby KJE » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:22 am

wpwp wrote:I am new to this board. But I do have a few questions. First I thought there were only supposed to be 30 players picked for the the Southern CA. but there looks like there were 33 for each team. I would assume that from the other two regionals there will be 23 players picked. Maybe my math is wrong. Also about making practices in the Southern zone the practices were not only during the High School season they were on the same days as games.The practices are 4 1/2 hours away so there in no way to make the practices. The zone coordinator tried to do the right thing but his hands were tied. Also I understand that a girl got hurt during the most recent pratice and now her High School team has no chance on making it to the State finals. What a shame. Why on the face of the earth would there be practices during High School season?


To clarify on the numbers, the kids who participated in a Junior World Championship were not included in the 30. We didn't want them taking spots from other kids. So we made it 30 plus. In Socal there 3 girls, in Northern Ca it will be 20+1 and in the East 20+1. I don't know the numbers on the boys side. The ODP calendar had been set way in advance. I only know of 2 trainings during high school season. The coaches made additional changes to alleviate this concern. It will be changed for next year, as noted in a post above.

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby Outside Shooter » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:14 am

Deepwater I do not get it??

During the start of the ODP process and throughout the last months till the regional championships you were all supportive of Segesman and ODP. "Best coach, best parochial school, your kids more talented and fortunate". Sounds like your child did not make the cut (sorry if he actually deserved to ). Maybe you can reflect back to all the previous post about the ODP process and issues that were being noticed by many ( not you at the time ). Cannot have it both ways, when your kid is getting what you think is fair and then when it is not fair to you. You have been very quick to criticize on the message board so I find it hard to have any sympathy when it seems not to go your way. I do not post a lot but, I did post my concerns about what I saw going on during the ODP tryouts. The ODP process have not progressed as many of the most talented players refuse to even participate anymore. The reason for their lack of interest is exactly what you have finally seen. Sorry it took you till the regional championship to acknowledge it.

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby Spargus » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:53 am

I'm just wondering as to the basis of statements such as the one from Ouside Shouter saying that "many of the most talented players refuse to even participate anymore" in ODP. I'm not here to defend ODP but are there any stats or numbers that could justify saying that. I can only speak for the age group I follow and I can tell that most of the "most talented players" are participating in the ODP.

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby Moderator » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:20 am

A couple of observations:

ODP is a National Program that I think we all will agree has improved every year. Kudos to the organizers who are listening to those involved.

Running a nationwide water polo program without conflicts is not simple...in fact, it may well be impossible in the US. ODP Regional Championships are running right now so do not conflict with California high school seasons but they do occur in the middle of Texas and Illinois high school seasons. Midwest ODP practices are run in the midst of myriad conflicts between St Louis, Illinois, Michigan and Ohio high school seasons and I expect the same is true in many other areas.

People in Socal are complaining that they have a 4 hour drive to practices...before I express sympathy, I have to look at the kids traveling the 12 hours from Buffalo, NY to Annapolis, MD or the mere 7 hours from Cincinatti, Ohio to Chicago.

Mens National Team Trial series are in constant conflict with NCAA regulations.

At the very best, the USA has uneasy relationships between the (various state and region) high school, NCAA, zone and USA Water Polo factions. Until we can find a way to get some sort of cooperation between all these competing groups, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any sort of non conflicted scheduling in a nationwide program.

I am a fairly experienced logistics person but would not be willing to take on the task of ODP scheduling because I cannot find a way to do it that is not in conflict with some area of the country. In water polo, the USA is a mass of tiny little feudal states each unwilling to work with the other for fear of losing a little slice of regional power.

At times, it is disgraceful. ODP cannot be blamed for this...we should look instead, in our own back yards.

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby deepwater » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:40 am

Outside shooter - I'm not looking for anything both ways, (as quoted from my previous post " But again. I enjoy every minute of this past weekend and I look forward to the weeks, months ahead!").

I'm merely calling a spade a spade in some underline objectives. I spoke up about the stuff I hear, see, and listen to at the try-outs, games and evaluations, and I do believe Chris S. is a great coach. Because I'm willing to make mention of this does not mean that I like or dislike everything that goes on.

Outsider Shooter, I do agree with you about a lot of kids, well qualified kids that don't even come out for this event and sometimes purposely over-looked. That's too bad. We need everyone to put their best foot forward. That is why I mentioned the underlying issues, this could be a huge reason why some kids don't bother to come out. KJE picked up on it and is willing to do something about it. So did Jason Lynch and many others within ODP. But until they hear it, people talk about it, nothing can be done or fixed, right?

Did you get a chance to read Doc's article, it's great.

Another one of my quote to KJE: "So KJE, "Let us all know what we can do to make this a better experience for all!"

So I'm sorry Outside Shooter if I seemed confusing.

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Re: So Cal Regional tournament results

Postby shellibelli » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:25 am

KJE wrote:
wpwp wrote:I am new to this board. But I do have a few questions. First I thought there were only supposed to be 30 players picked for the the Southern CA. but there looks like there were 33 for each team. I would assume that from the other two regionals there will be 23 players picked. Maybe my math is wrong. Also about making practices in the Southern zone the practices were not only during the High School season they were on the same days as games.The practices are 4 1/2 hours away so there in no way to make the practices. The zone coordinator tried to do the right thing but his hands were tied. Also I understand that a girl got hurt during the most recent pratice and now her High School team has no chance on making it to the State finals. What a shame. Why on the face of the earth would there be practices during High School season?


To clarify on the numbers, the kids who participated in a Junior World Championship were not included in the 30. We didn't want them taking spots from other kids. So we made it 30 plus. In Socal there 3 girls, in Northern Ca it will be 20+1 and in the East 20+1. I don't know the numbers on the boys side. The ODP calendar had been set way in advance. I only know of 2 trainings during high school season. The coaches made additional changes to alleviate this concern. It will be changed for next year, as noted in a post above.



Kim-
Can you enlighten us as to the plan to integrate the 91's back into the ODP program? Will they (the travel team that went to Russia, or some subset of the top 91U players) be invited to the Training Camp in June? Or perhaps a separate tryout? Given that they can still play in Junior Worlds next time around I am assuming they are still part of the Jr. Team plan.

Thanks!

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