Yet another ODP screw-up

USA Water Polo Olympic Development Program
coyote
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:59 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: fan

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby coyote » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:26 am

RedCardDad wrote:Not sure what players from La Mo or other teams were tagged as unworthy, but what is reality is that the Cadet team lost to both Brazil and Columbia. Brazil and Columbia? One known for its coffee and the other for its past life of drug cartels. If Columbia wins, what would Italy, Hungary, and others do? Please understand that I am sure the young men are playing their hearts out, but this is not good news for our future if it is predicated upon current results.


Review the history of these UANA games. Ask yourself what countries at these games ever qualify for the Olympics? This is usually not a competitive tournament for the US or Canada at these ages. Look at the USA Senior National Men’s team who recently beat a Canadian Senior National Men’s team of National Junior Team aged players in China and were rejoicing. I don’t know what team the Canadians will send to the Pan American Games later this year to qualify for the Olympics but USA Water Polo has surely missed the buck on this one. Consider these UANA as travel experience for your young players. If USA Water Polo continues on the course it has been taking, parents put your dreams in the trash because the only thing USA Water Polo is successful at is getting money from your pockets.

KJE
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:05 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: Coach

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby KJE » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:31 pm

Clarification- Brett Ormsby did not replace Segesman in any capacity. Segesman has never been a national team coach in any capacity until he became an assistant on the JNT. Of which, he has not been to any summer trainings nor is going to Junior Worlds. The Segesman argument is dead, the money grab argument is dead. The increase in odps numbers prove that the people who know whats going on, believe in it. I've been on National team staffs since 2001. I sure hope there are more people out there who wish us success than those who can't wait for us to fail.

waterwatcher
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:06 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: fan

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby waterwatcher » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:43 pm

KJE wrote: I sure hope there are more people out there who wish us success than those who can't wait for us to fail.


I too hope it succeeds. However I think that is will never be everything people hope it could be. For one thing it is just too expensive and too time consuming.

My son made the ODP team a while ago, however I could not afford for him to continue on with it. Also the time required for the training was also something we could just not handle. It is very difficult to maintain the straight A grades while playing club polo, high school polo and swim and ODP polo. Now if we did not have such a drive to the trainings that would have helped, and many of the other boys did not have this problem as they lived close to where the trainings happened.

This is not a knock against the program. It is more of a knock against those who think that just because a kid is not ODP he is not top. There are many reasons, two of which I just named why a kid is not ODP.

readnweep
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:15 am
How are you connected to water polo?: freinds who are fans of water polo

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby readnweep » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:51 pm

KJE wrote:The money grab argument is dead. The increase in odps numbers prove that the people who know whats going on, believe in it. I've been on National team staffs since 2001. I sure hope there are more people out there who wish us success than those who can't wait for us to fail.


ODP numbers might be up, but that does not mean that trend will continue. The program failed a lot of kids this year to the point where many may not return next year. ODP's advantage to itself is that it does a good job driving off the vanity of the parents who pay the bills. ODP can come up with psuedo programs to support kids born in odd years next year, but similar to other feedback, the smart kids are going to figure out (or have already figured out) that they can do just as well (if not better) than the kids that go all the way to the top of ODP. The kids are better off playing for a good club team where they are probably already at the verge of over-training so their bodies can rest sufficiently and grow, and they can arrive back at HS polo healthy, much stronger, and a heck of a lot fresher than those that spent a lot of additional time with ODP.

coyote
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:59 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: fan

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby coyote » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:47 pm

KJE wrote:Clarification- Brett Ormsby did not replace Segesman in any capacity. Segesman has never been a national team coach in any capacity until he became an assistant on the JNT. Of which, he has not been to any summer trainings nor is going to Junior Worlds. The Segesman argument is dead, the money grab argument is dead. The increase in odps numbers prove that the people who know whats going on, believe in it. I've been on National team staffs since 2001. I sure hope there are more people out there who wish us success than those who can't wait for us to fail.


For some reason I thought Segesman was the 2010 head sopac odp zone coach who made sopac selections and lynch made the final selection process. I thought the odp was the pipeline to the national olympic program and were somehow connected.Silly me.


Who is coaching the boys in Puerto Rico?

coyote
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:59 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: fan

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby coyote » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:21 pm

readnweep wrote:
KJE wrote:The money grab argument is dead. The increase in odps numbers prove that the people who know whats going on, believe in it. I've been on National team staffs since 2001. I sure hope there are more people out there who wish us success than those who can't wait for us to fail.


ODP numbers might be up, but that does not mean that trend will continue. The program failed a lot of kids this year to the point where many may not return next year. ODP's advantage to itself is that it does a good job driving off the vanity of the parents who pay the bills. ODP can come up with psuedo programs to support kids born in odd years next year, but similar to other feedback, the smart kids are going to figure out (or have already figured out) that they can do just as well (if not better) than the kids that go all the way to the top of ODP. The kids are better off playing for a good club team where they are probably already at the verge of over-training so their bodies can rest sufficiently and grow, and they can arrive back at HS polo healthy, much stronger, and a heck of a lot fresher than those that spent a lot of additional time with ODP.

readnweep, you are absolutely correct. It takes time for families to figure out what is going on. Some even confess to knowing what is going on but don't want johnny or jane to miss out. As long as they can afford the fees, some families will continue the payout installment process. Some of the odp coaches are just not that knowledgeable.Overtraining creates injuries. Many waterpolo players have hip surgery and shoulder surgery and this is not uncommon.

Originally there was development, cadet, youth, jnt and snt players . Over the next few years there was only snt, jnt and cadet. Parents were upset about fewer groups and players needing to wait longer to get into a group. All the while, USAWP realized that they weren't capitalizing on this profit making machine. At one point there was only going to be a snt and jnt. Then cadet was added back and now youth. This is why the numbers are going up.

I'm expecting some new groups to be added next year as well, inutero, rollovers, crawlers, walkers, runners, doggy paddlers, swimmers, with the usual development, cadet, youth, jnt, snt. Oh, don't forget there will be two different divisions. Championship Division (ODP Potential) and Challenge Division (experience the ODP and watch from the sidelines). Then within each different division-platinum and gold levels. Everyone gets a certificate or medal, everyone pays, everyone plays, everyone odp olympic pipeline potential.

Parents can watch the tryouts or practice session at $25 a day or $60 for the weekend if you pay in advance, add a $3.75 convenience fee (aye-everything is going up) but must go to the John Wayne Airport between 2:13am - 3:37am pst on the upper level/departures at the last booth by the Southwest Terminal on the prior Thursday of the ODP session. Bring id, birth certificate and uswp id. Plastic wristband in new colors will be applied tightly to the wrist and cannot be given to other family members. In response to a previous question from a parent who asked-You can't buy a tournament wristband and have Granny wear it one day, auntie Mame another day, cousin Minny the third day and family friend Sally for the final because once a wristband is on, it's on for the tournament. Take it off and you buy a daily pass for each person attending the tryouts or practice session. ODP mimics JOs. ODP numbers go up as KJE says. Yes, very feasible. Oh sh*t-hope i didn't give Baker any ideas :mad:

EMJ
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:04 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: fan

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby EMJ » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:04 pm

coyote wrote: I'm expecting some new groups to be added next year as well, inutero, rollovers, crawlers, walkers, runners, doggy paddlers, swimmers, with the usual development, cadet, youth, jnt, snt. Oh, don't forget there will be two different divisions. Championship Division (ODP Potential) and Challenge Division (experience the ODP and watch from the sidelines). Then within each different division-platinum and gold levels. Everyone gets a certificate or medal, everyone pays, everyone plays, everyone odp olympic pipeline potential.


Although we won't be spending another dime on ODP (it took our kid to show us our vain ways), you (coyote) have some writing talent much worth coming back to these blogs for. The ODP situation is far worse than I thought if even half what you write is true. If none of it's true, then it's still very funny stuff.

You also point out some real dangers of over-training. Other than making players very susceptible to injury, it can take the fun out of the game and really slow down a kid's progress (or even send it backwards). I seem to see a great deal of this in polo. I also see that there are coaches like Dante D. that seem to have a very sensible approach to training that some coaches and parents should at least glance at, which might keep their players fresher, make them stronger, and keep them smiling.

On the other hand, parents need to act like parents and get out out of the vicarious living craze and be more sensible about the training their kids should be involved with. Adding ODP on top of a demanding club team is just plain ignorance. Yep, their kids will excel for awhile, but the risk is severe injury, and the cost could be a life-time burn-out of sports all together. Over training is probably something many of these parents might not know anything about. If they did, they might much more seriously consider the irreparable damage it can do to their kids instead of the short term glory.

Nobody should confuse what I'm saying with a kinder gentler world. USAWP, ODP, High School conference divisions, etc. already do a great job of that. I'm totally against all that, and feel that kids (at least the older age groups) need a real dose of the real competitive world and where they fit in it. Once they realize how good they "really" are compared to everyone else, they'll find that they should cut out the programs that don't help them enough (or send them backwards) and better concentrate their limited energy on the activities that are going to move them up the ranks a lot more quickly. I'll take a great club that understands this over additional programs like ODP every time.

T&Tpolo
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:29 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: Fan, two older boys play.

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby T&Tpolo » Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:40 pm

Some real good players on odp for sure.....but not always the best players. LAMO 16s win gold no odp, SOCAL 16s win bronze no odp, lawp wins silver don't know their odp status. Play for a high level club, high school, swim team...get the grades for that college!...that's a lot to get out of that student/athlete. No real comment here other than, those of us who really can't afford the odp program, there is hope of success at a higher level. peace

Doru Roll
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:56 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: player, fan, referee

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby Doru Roll » Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:54 pm

EMJ wrote:
H2OPolo1961 wrote:This is by far the most rational post by a parent on this thread, perhaps by anyone else. I think the common thread in the other, more bellicose posts is not so much the ODP (which deserves its share of criticism to be sure), but rather parents living vicariously through their children. I think we all know the kind... I have to admit that I too am guilty of that on occasion, but fortunately my wife is there to remind me what this is really about, much like polo4mykids thankfully did here.


Sorry H20Polo1961, but polozaur has a point. Yes I push my kids, but I also look out for them, and I don't appreciate being automatically classified as someone living vicariously through my kids just because I too have serious issues with the status quo. I'm not understanding how anyone could be so aloof when it comes to the way ODP and usa polo has behaved towards its customers.


EMJ wrote: ...On the other hand, parents need to act like parents and get out out of the vicarious living craze and be more sensible about the training their kids should be involved with. Adding ODP on top of a demanding club team is just plain ignorance. Yep, their kids will excel for awhile, but the risk is severe injury, and the cost could be a life-time burn-out of sports all together. Over training is probably something many of these parents might not know anything about. If they did, they might much more seriously consider the irreparable damage it can do to their kids instead of the short term glory...


What brought about the change of heart, EMJ ?

EMJ
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:04 pm
How are you connected to water polo?: fan

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby EMJ » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:30 pm

What brought about the change of heart, EMJ ?

If you mean parents living vicariously through their kids, I haven't changed my mind. Maybe I overstated, but it could be healthy as long as the kids are getting what they want out of water polo (there's nothing wrong with people being proud and boasting of their kid's accomplishments and abilities). It could be unhealthy if the parents own aspirations are pushing a workload on their kids that physically/mentally tears them down to a point they stop getting better or even go backwards (and even stop enjoying the sport).

Some parents that have competed at high levels understand the dangers of over-training and how easy it is to cross into that zone. They also understand that the risk of over-training can be significantly increased by the total stress in a kid's life (school, parents, boyfriends, girlfriends, ODP, club team, high school team, other teams, pimples, etc.). I like to assume that those sort of parents might or might not live vicariously through their kids, but will know to point their kids to err training on the smart side of workload. On the other hand, there are parents that don't seem to understand stress and over-training and may not be fulfilled with their own competitive achievements that might be more prone to pushing their kids past their abilities.

Notice that I used a lot of tentative auxiliary verbs as not to automatically classify every case.

If that's not what you meant, you'll have to be more clear about what you're asking.

Return to “Olympic Development Program”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests