Yet another ODP screw-up

USA Water Polo Olympic Development Program
norcalpologirl
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby norcalpologirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:55 pm

This surprises me because there usually is a daily schedule for these camps. Were the return flights scheduled before the end of the Monday calendar schedule?
Or did the camp directors not follow the schedule?
Why is the list an unpublished list?


Yes the return flight was scheduled before the end of the Monday calendar schedule. Water under the bridge now I guess.

I don't know why the list is an unpublished list. My son told me that there were tons of parents there and presumably, all the kids remaining heard who was on what team, so it's not a secret.

The funny thing is, all this noise and vitriol that my post has raised and my original point is still valid:
No one from ODP ever apologized to my son or the other boys for the screw up.
No coaches ever contacted any of them to let them know whether or not they were on the team (yes, I've talked to the other parents)
No evaluation or feedback was given.

And why did I choose this forum for my complaint? Because my emails to the coaches went un-answered. Through my work I know that an unhappy customer handled correctly can be turned into your biggest fan. ODP and USWP are missing so many opportunities.

readnweep
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby readnweep » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:49 am

KFE - Thanks for all of your passion for the sport and I just hope that a forum such as this can be used for constructive dialogue. The first step is standing by your opinions and not hiding behind icons and nicknames.


KFE - KJE at least tries very hard to really listen, but you're response is representative of the rest of polo leadership's failure to even try to listen to what your customers have to say. Many are telling you that you have problems on your hands and you address this by "hoping" we can be constructive when we speak up. If you really put your listening ears on one day, you'll realize that your customers hide behind icons, nicknames, etc, because they fear they or their kids will be punished one way or another for speaking up in this little waterpolo world. Keep blaming your customers KFE "when you do respond" and you and the rest of your sport's leadership will continue to help this sport do nothing but "continue" to excel at nothing but mediocrity. Things may have improved over the years, but you're far from having anything to rest your hat on when compared to the other sports competing for the same athletes (and their $$$$).

R&W

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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby Water-Polo-Fan » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:49 am

readnweep wrote:
KFE - Thanks for all of your passion for the sport and I just hope that a forum such as this can be used for constructive dialogue. The first step is standing by your opinions and not hiding behind icons and nicknames.


KFE - KJE at least tries very hard to really listen, but you're response is representative of the rest of polo leadership's failure to even try to listen to what your customers have to say. Many are telling you that you have problems on your hands and you address this by "hoping" we can be constructive when we speak up. If you really put your listening ears on one day, you'll realize that your customers hide behind icons, nicknames, etc, because they fear they or their kids will be punished one way or another for speaking up in this little waterpolo world. Keep blaming your customers KFE "when you do respond" and you and the rest of your sport's leadership will continue to help this sport do nothing but "continue" to excel at nothing but mediocrity. Things may have improved over the years, but you're far from having anything to rest your hat on when compared to the other sports competing for the same athletes (and their $$$$).
R&W

I truly think that the issues you, and others that feel similarly, presented here have been heard by two members of the ODP staff that have chosen to respond in this forum. I have absolutely NO horse in this race but I am confused as to why they are continually being blasted for trying to answer your questions and issues honestly.

When Kirk asks for constructive dialogue in the process I don't think it's unreasonable considering the alternative. I know this may not be the most popular of views to some, but I don't subscribe to the belief that the customer is always right. I'm sorry, I just don't. There are some serious issues within the ODP that according to what I'm reading here need to be addressed.Absolutely there are. That is obvious. Those issues may, or may not, be getting addressed as quickly, or as well, as those affected may hope but I certainly don't think it's unreasonable for Kirk or Kim to simply ask for constructive dialogue to ascertain what those problems are and how to properly address them. It bl#$% my mind to see them (Kim especially) being attacked here simply because they've put themselves out there to address your concerns. As I posted earlier I think Kim would've been better off to not post anything and simply let your postings here fall on deaf ears.

Kim and Kirk have no idea who I am by my sign on name but I do know them both professionally and although we've had major differences over the years I can tell you they are both people who are absolutely dedicated to the athletes they coach as well as the sport we all love. I'm not expecting us all to have a group hug or agree on everything here at the end of the day but I don't think it's too much to ask that we be constructive in how we speak to each other. Working together is going to demand that. Nowhere in their posts do I hear that they are unwilling to address your legitimate concerns. They can't solve all the issues you may have but where there are problems that they can't fix they can certainly bring those concerns up their chain of command. I don't know about you all, but I certainly wouldn't want to bite the head off the one or two people that have CHOSEN to address your ODP concerns. Being constructive in how we interact in that process is not, in my humble opinion, too much to ask from them. You may not get what you think you deserve from USAWP but I think it's the best way to go. In the end I hope it's because it's about business with ODP and USAWP and not anything personal or self serving.

I don't mean to sound too kumbaya-like, but I hope that working together and recognizing all that everyone has to offer in the process will reap the rewards that will assist the ODP and the athletes they coach in the collective goal of bringing USA Water Polo the medals and accolades we all know they are capable of earning.

Ih the words of Frank Bartles of Bartles and James fame, "....Thank you for your support"

suzyt421
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby suzyt421 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:43 am

I don't mean to sound too kumbaya-like, but I hope that working together and recognizing all that everyone has to offer in the process will reap the rewards that will assist the ODP and the athletes they coach in the collective goal of bringing USA Water Polo the medals and accolades we all know they are capable of earning.


Good luck with all that idealism water polo fan with the evil looking devil thingy icon. Since I really haven't seen anything truly constructive from polo (odp and usawp) leadership or the fans in this blog, the only reason for me to look back in here in a few years is for a giggle to see how things have worked out for you to improve the sport. Or maybe not, because I believe one of those more organized and competitive sports someone else was talking about has won my child's heart out over polo--and we'll never have to look back.

H2Opolo1961
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby H2Opolo1961 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:55 am

This thread is beginning to sound like Rhett Butler's famous line from "Gone with the wind"...

barknbette
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby barknbette » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:37 am

This thread is beginning to sound like Rhett Butler's famous line from "Gone with the wind"...


hah 1961polodude - I couldn't agree more. This is polo for #$%^&-sakes. the kiddies need to put on helmets or definitely go for a softer gentler sport if they want organization, consistency, not to be ignored, and not to be smacked around by their mentors. Jeeeepers, what's this sport coming to already?? toughen up everyone.
bb

polo4mykids
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby polo4mykids » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:18 pm

I have been following the remarks on this board for the last few months and it has been enlightening - but not in a positive way. The negative comments toward the Everists need to stop. You all cry out that you want ODP and USAWP to respond and when they do, it is never enough. Both sides need to listen and realize that no sport is perfect and work together to make the improvements. It is easy to cast stones, but hard sometimes to see both sides, and harder still to work together on a solution.

My children have both played other sports - club soccer, softball, baseball, etc. - prior my oldest falling in love with polo. I can tell you that every sport has politics and nepotism. My son participated in ODP and even though he did not make the final cut, it was a wonderful experience for him. Am I upset he didn't go farther? Of course, as a parent you always want your child to shine. Was he upset? I think a bit disappointed that the experience was over but he didn't cry unfair. As parents, we have to keep our negative comments on coaching, selection, etc. to ourselves or it trickles down to our children. What did ODP give my son? A chance to learn new skills, play for different coaches, play with and against some of the best players in his age group in Southern California and make friends with boys that share the same passion for water polo. The smile on my son's face when he sees one of his ODP friends has made the program worth it.

Remember our children are playing the sport because they love it. No other sport demands as much time and training to play for a relatively short amount of time. If, we constantly whine and complain, sooner or later it will suck the fun right out of the sport and most likely, you will complain about the same problems polo faces (favoritism, etc.) but with a different sport.

readnweep
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby readnweep » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:33 pm

If, we constantly whine and complain, sooner or later it will suck the fun right out of the sport and most likely, you will complain about the same problems polo faces (favoritism, etc.) but with a different sport.


As far as sucking the fun right out of the sport, the ODP machine did that to our son all by itself. He was was a top candidate out of his region and decided not to go out to california because ODP leadership would not return our legitimate questions when it came to actual qualifications for the national level teams. For that and many other experiences, now he just ignores anything he hears about ODP. We're happy for him that he gets it and that he is pathological about not putting one extra thought into ODP and that he is extremely interested in other sports now. If he saw "anyone" coming back from ODP camps or training significantly better afterwards, then maybe he would care a bit more--but that doesn't seem to be happening.

On the other hand, his polo coaches, teams, and friends have been some of the best coaches, teams, and friends he has ever had or ever will have. Everything has always been fantastic at the club level. However, his last two ODP experiences have cast dark shadows on any aspirations he might have had in the sport and now he has lost quite a bit of interest in any sort of polo.

It's great that we have "some" leaders that care enough to respond. However, until someone takes ownership for ODP or USAWP problems as a whole, this whining and complaining from both sides is never going to end.

.....and any of the ill treatment some of the supposed civilized players, fans, coaches, and leadership gives refs in should never be acceptable. That is another poor representation of any sport.

H2Opolo1961
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby H2Opolo1961 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:35 pm

polo4mykids wrote:I have been following the remarks on this board for the last few months and it has been enlightening - but not in a positive way. The negative comments toward the Everists need to stop. You all cry out that you want ODP and USAWP to respond and when they do, it is never enough. Both sides need to listen and realize that no sport is perfect and work together to make the improvements. It is easy to cast stones, but hard sometimes to see both sides, and harder still to work together on a solution.

My children have both played other sports - club soccer, softball, baseball, etc. - prior my oldest falling in love with polo. I can tell you that every sport has politics and nepotism. My son participated in ODP and even though he did not make the final cut, it was a wonderful experience for him. Am I upset he didn't go farther? Of course, as a parent you always want your child to shine. Was he upset? I think a bit disappointed that the experience was over but he didn't cry unfair. As parents, we have to keep our negative comments on coaching, selection, etc. to ourselves or it trickles down to our children. What did ODP give my son? A chance to learn new skills, play for different coaches, play with and against some of the best players in his age group in Southern California and make friends with boys that share the same passion for water polo. The smile on my son's face when he sees one of his ODP friends has made the program worth it.

Remember our children are playing the sport because they love it. No other sport demands as much time and training to play for a relatively short amount of time. If, we constantly whine and complain, sooner or later it will suck the fun right out of the sport and most likely, you will complain about the same problems polo faces (favoritism, etc.) but with a different sport.


This is by far the most rational post by a parent on this thread, perhaps by anyone else. I think the common thread in the other, more bellicose posts is not so much the ODP (which deserves its share of criticism to be sure), but rather parents living vicariously through their children. I think we all know the kind... I have to admit that I too am guilty of that on occasion, but fortunately my wife is there to remind me what this is really about, much like polo4mykids thankfully did here.

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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby polosaurus » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:06 pm

This is by far the most rational post by a parent on this thread, perhaps by anyone else. I think the common thread in the other, more bellicose posts is not so much the ODP (which deserves its share of criticism to be sure), but rather parents living vicariously through their children. I think we all know the kind... I have to admit that I too am guilty of that on occasion, but fortunately my wife is there to remind me what this is really about, much like polo4mykids thankfully did here.


I've seen quite a few of your posts 1961poloperson, and they always seem to be over simplified and pointing at most of this bickering being caused by all these parents living vicariously through their kids. Maybe true for you and some others, but don't always take the lazy route and condemn parental concerns for the well being of their children's livelihood as vicarious living. Maybe not true for you, but there are quite a few of us left that have our own competitive aspirations (our own personal thing we do) and don't need you to bully right up to this bar and soften the blow where it belongs when legitimate issues are raised.

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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby EMJ » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:42 pm

This is by far the most rational post by a parent on this thread, perhaps by anyone else. I think the common thread in the other, more bellicose posts is not so much the ODP (which deserves its share of criticism to be sure), but rather parents living vicariously through their children. I think we all know the kind... I have to admit that I too am guilty of that on occasion, but fortunately my wife is there to remind me what this is really about, much like polo4mykids thankfully did here.


Sorry H20Polo1961, but polozaur has a point. Yes I push my kids, but I also look out for them, and I don't appreciate being automatically classified as someone living vicariously through my kids just because I too have serious issues with the status quo. I'm not understanding how anyone could be so aloof when it comes to the way ODP and usa polo has behaved towards its customers.

Chernenko
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby Chernenko » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:37 pm

Thanks for your comments Kim and Kirk! I think Kirk's post is heading in the exact direction that the ODP "customers" want. I think that a detailed outline of the fees and EXACTLY where they are going is what folks are curious and often times frustrated about. The ODP customers will probably spend $5,000 in a given year per kid on HS, Club and ODP dues/expenses. Especially in today's economy, it can be a lot of $$ for families. I think if they feel any hint of being "strung along" to help a cause outside of their kid and his/her direct relationship with ODP, then it becomes very frustrating. If some of the proceeds from their ODP fees are being used for the Senior National Teams, then just disclose that fact at the very outset when the zone tryouts occur. Simply give each participant a line-item sheet that shows exactly what their eventual $800 fee payment covers - dollar by dollar on an individual participant basis. If the athlete ends up making the National Training Team and more fees are needed, then the same should be done again at that point and so on...Thanks again Kirk and Kim for all of your efforts and your correspondence.

H2Opolo1961
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby H2Opolo1961 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:30 pm

polosaurus wrote:... I've seen quite a few of your posts 1961poloperson...

I'm flattered (I think?)

polosaurus wrote:... but don't always take the lazy route and condemn parental concerns for the well being of their children's livelihood as vicarious living...

I would reply to this, if only I understood what it means.

polosaurus wrote:... but there are quite a few of us left that have our own competitive aspirations (our own personal thing we do) and don't need you to bully right up to this bar and soften the blow where it belongs when legitimate issues are raised.

Good luck with your aspirations, polosaurus. Hopefully, graduating high school is among them; perhaps even college. BTW, the phrase is: "belly up to the bar".

EMJ wrote:... and I don't appreciate being automatically classified as someone living vicariously through my kids just because I too have serious issues with the status quo.

I didn't EMJ, I promise. When I posted I didn't even know you existed.

EMJ wrote:... I'm not understanding how anyone could be so aloof when it comes to the way ODP and usa polo has behaved towards its customers.

Did you actually read any of my posts?

H2OPoloMonster
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby H2OPoloMonster » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:35 pm

norcalpologirl wrote:
This surprises me because there usually is a daily schedule for these camps. Were the return flights scheduled before the end of the Monday calendar schedule? Or did the camp directors not follow the schedule? Why is the list an unpublished list?
Yes the return flight was scheduled before the end of the Monday calendar schedule. Water under the bridge now I guess. I don't know why the list is an unpublished list. My son told me that there were tons of parents there and presumably, all the kids remaining heard who was on what team, so it's not a secret. The funny thing is, all this noise and vitriol that my post has raised and my original point is still valid: No one from ODP ever apologized to my son or the other boys for the screw up.
No coaches ever contacted any of them to let them know whether or not they were on the team (yes, I've talked to the other parents)No evaluation or feedback was given.
And why did I choose this forum for my complaint? Because my emails to the coaches went un-answered. Through my work I know that an unhappy customer handled correctly can be turned into your biggest fan. ODP and USWP are missing so many opportunities.

Emailing coaches for information will only label you a problematic parent. I've seen many coaches joke about parents while players have also been the butt of jokes. You might be surprised to know that some of these coaches are also described as wonderful, caring and thoughful. Personally, I'm sorry that your son (and other boys) missed part of the camp. The boys will never get an appology from USAWP. Please don't expect it and don't email the coaches anymore since it will do more harm than good. Your son has a great parent who cares about him.

EMJ wrote:Sorry H20Polo1961, but polozaur has a point. Yes I push my kids, but I also look out for them, and I don't appreciate being automatically classified as someone living vicariously through my kids just because I too have serious issues with the status quo. I'm not understanding how anyone could be so aloof when it comes to the way ODP and usa polo has behaved towards its customers.

You're right, caring about your son does not mean that you are living vicariously through him.

USAWP has had enough of these camps to know what they need to do and not to do. It's either completely sloppy work or some cost saving measure to get on an earlier plane. It doesn't make any sense that the camp wouldn't have been rearranged to end earlier or coincide with flight departures. Your thought process to voice your concerns on this message board is one of the reasons WPP exists. You have every right to do so with good reason.

Since the ODP Schedule for the Weekend Camp did not coincide with the scheduling of flights for the NorCal Boys, I wouldn't be surprised if the ODP Detail of the Fees that KFE provided was 100% accurate. What's supposed to happen doesn't always happen and you don't usually find this out. In the past, the hours were not accurate. The player to coach ratio was too large so actual player learning was impossible. Some of the coaches weren't qualified. I've heard that regional camps in southern california have players in hotels that are further away from the pools than their own homes. Most parents and players would have prefered to stay home. Parents were still required to drive their kids from the hotel to the pool or one parent took his vehicle and drove one of the teams to the regional camp. This would have been an opportunity for a cost cutting expenditure that wasn't necessary. I've heard USAWP puts 4 kids in 1 room with 2 double beds as a cost cutting measure. Certain pools are sometimes retained at no charge including the Santa Ana Valley Pool [and possibly the Costa Mesa Pool?]. I was told that Guy Baker travels 1st class which would probably mean that Chris Ramsey does as well.

This is the Post from OC Varsity of the entire list of players selected to the Next Training Camp and the latest boys to make the cut for the Youth Team is on the OC Varsity Website.
Seven Orange County standouts have made the latest cuts with the U.S. national youth team, USA Water Polo announced.
The super seven are:
Newport Harbor sophomore defender Dan Stevens
Villa Park junior utility BJ Churnside
Mater Dei freshman attacker Kent Inoue
Los Alamitos sophomore attacker Chandler Jarrels
Mater Dei freshman attacker James Walters
Huntington Beach junior attacker Max Schultz
Mater Dei freshman goalie McQuin Baron
The team is going to have another camp in June but here is where the roster stands now:
Men's Youth Team 2011
Training Camp Roster
First Name Last Name Zone Position Year Grade
Alec Zwaneveld CST C 94 11
Matt Farmer MW C 95 10
John Neumann CEN C 94 11
Alex Kuykendall CEN C 95 10
Chanc. Ramirez CST CD 94 10
Dan Stevens SPA CD 94 10
Justin Roberto PAC CD 94 11
Ben Stevenson MTN CD 95 10
Jamie Kuprenas CST U 94 11
Danny McClintik CST U 94 11
BJ Churnside SPA U 94 11
Henry McNamara CST A 94 10
Connor Stapleton CEN A 95 10
Blake Lee PSW A 94 10
Kent Inoue SPA A 96 9
ChandlerJarrels SPA A 94 10
Jack Fellner PAC A 94 10
Charlie Wiser PAC A 94 10
Adam Abdulhamid CST A 94 11
James Walters SPA A 96 9
Jesse Camou CST A 95 10
Max Schultz SPA A 94 11
Ikko Saito SPA LA 95 10
Jon. Chow SE LA 95 9
McQuin Baron SPA GK 95 9
Alex Gow PAC GK 94 11
Nick Hoy CST GK 94 10
Kevin Anderson MTN GK 94 11
Coach: Jason Lynch

worm
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby worm » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:47 pm

getting a bit weird in here...some of the complaints have been heard it seems while others seem to be coming from people who have a hard time seperating their feelings from the truth of the situation. however, all complaints are the same as i have heard/read in basketball and soccer ODP similar systems--somewhat tied at one point in time in each.

however, being present at numerous ODP camps and watching athletes train i believe this years ODP NTSC was the best of all--even better than soccer's ODP. The athletes received some very good training and skills at a very high level. many parents and athletes are reaching for the outcome (making a national team) and have narrowed their vision to that. however, i witnessed some very high level learning and coaching going on for 22 hours this weekend. tons of info and tons of great skill work. i can only imagine how much better this process is going to get as it seems to be improving each year.

thank you guy, james, and kim (and kirk for the great info posted here which truly revealed where the money is going) for all the work you put into this and for the improvements taking place every year, shows you truly do listen.

for those worried about the cost of ODP. as kirk shows in his email the money goes a long way for an athlete and if you can't afford it the grant process does work (i know of an athlete that had to use it).

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