National Training Camp Selections???

USA Water Polo Olympic Development Program
east 2 west
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby east 2 west » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:18 pm

Where/When did this post take a left turn from a National Training Camp Selection 'topic' to a bunch of BS? Swim teams, hockey, haters.

South OC
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby South OC » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:02 pm

It seems like that is always the case. I have posted many times asking others for their thoughts on how teams will do in upcoming tournaments like HS State Championships, US Club Champs and JOs and dont get very many responses. Yet if you mention Mater Dei or Ramsey, the sight goes off.

I realise that if you aren't from California you might not know the teams for some of our bigger tournaments but JOs is the biggest tournament for water polo in the country and yet you still get few responses. Seems like the same posters keep bringing everything back to these topics to push their agenda.

Not sure how much longer I will follow this site but I keep coming back hoping more people want to discuss basic water polo.

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Doc
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby Doc » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:44 am

oldtimer

You said, "Doc - I still stand behind my statement. Whether you said "players" or "good players" has little to nothing to do with the reality. I must presume that college coaches are recruiting good players, not players simply because they reside in a particular state that is 3000+ miles away. Therefore, I must also presume that since most of the recruited players are from CA, that this must be where the highest number of good players are."

It has everything to do with reality because one of my conclusions in the article was that all the better California players were staying in California and those playing on Eastern teams, in my opinion, were no better than the players from the East. You really don't believe it was unethical to misquote me and to make conclusions for me. Let see how you would like it if I were to make up conclusions based on what I think you said in your post. After reading what you had to say I conclude that you not only believe that the majority of good players are from California but you also believe it should stay that way. Therefore, I must also presume that you want it to stay that way so some one close to you, a player from California, would have a better chance of making a National Team. It was difficult for me to say some of those things but it didn't seem to bother you at all when you said, "Whether you said 'players' or 'good players' has little to nothing to do with the reality".

You said, "You may not like this conclusion, and you may wish to make the implication that East Coast college coaches have no idea how to evaluate a player's skill - but if that is the case, I will disagree with you."

There you go trying to put words in my mouth again. The majority of the coaches of Eastern Teams are from the East so did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons so many California players are playing for Eastern Teams is because they want better coaches?

You said, "Considering the comments that have been made, and the facts provided, it should be clear that the reason for the state of water polo in the US is not facilities or climate, but culture. One can argue that this is the mission of USAWP, and therefore the organization is a failure - I won't dispute that."

You mentioned "culture or "water polo culture" several times. What do you mean by "water polo culture"? Would you be so kind as to let us non-California's know what that term "water polo culture" really means since several posters have said you can only get it in California?

Finally, you said, "The other sports that I have been involved with also have an NGB with a similar mission. Most of them do not provide the entry level opportunities to get athletes interested in the sport - that is typically done by another organization. For figure skating, the USOC recognized entity is USFSA, but ISI actually has more athletes, and it is primarily a recreational (rather than competitive) organization. Most ice rinks have ISI classes they run to introduce skaters to the sport. Gymnastics has USAG, but the primary entity that most recreational gymnasts operate under is AAU. There are similar recreational organizations for hockey and archery. The USOC recognized entities are primarily interested in attracting those who are truly competitive, and offering them opportunities to develop into national level competitors, rather than recreational opportunities. Like it or not, this is how other sports attract new athletes, from my experience - by getting them into a fun and recreational environment, then transitioning them to a more competitive one if that is what they desire. I would suggest that this is the function that American Water Polo can, and should, serve."

This has little to nothing to do with the reality of water polo today.

Doc

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stickman
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby stickman » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:15 am

EPH POLO:
"Perhaps the thing most likely to get some other polo-minded folks here would be for a handful of the CWPA club teams to go varsity and bring in some underemployed coaches who'd be looking for club work to round out the paycheck."

BINGO! That is, in my opinion, something that would dramatically benefit water polo nationwide. This is also something USA Water Polo could do a much better job of making happen. It is my understanding that Ramsey actually has sent a letter to AD's across the country about sponsoring water polo at their colleges. I don't know what further plan of action is being taken or if there even is any further plan of action. But certainly there should be more than just a letter of suggestion from the NGB in an effort to grow the sport nationwide.

oldtimer
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby oldtimer » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:50 am

Doc - I will summarize as best I can, and then just let it go because it seems to be a fruitless discussion at this point.

In my opinion, you and some of the others are simply arguing against the facts. California players from a few select counties dominate the water polo scene because, as a general rule, they are getting better experience. This is not due to better coaching, per se, but due to the fact that there are more opportunities to play against very good players and teams. It is not unlike those who say our National Team should play in Europe so they can get the experience they need to compete globally.

Why is Europe a better place to train our National Team? Because it has a culture that supports water polo. It does not mean our National Team does not train hard - it means that for them to get high quality games against many different opponents they must go where those top teams are. In the US, those top teams are primarily in a select few California counties.

Those California counties have created a culture of water polo - obviously not as good as those in Eastern Europe, but the best that the US has. The facts seem to indicate that if anyone else in the world wants to compete with Eastern Europe on a consistent basis they will need to cultivate the culture to do so, which is what those select California counties have been doing. I am arguing that the same is true of other regions of the US vs. California. I don't see how anyone can argue that East Coast teams are stacked with Californians simply because Californians are there, rather than because they are able to earn those spots over the East Coast players. This is not to say that there are no good East Coast players, just that there are many more good California players, and *as a group* they are able to compete at a higher level.

As far as what other sports do - it has *EVERYTHING* to do with water polo. Those other sports have exactly the same issues, whether it be attracting athletes at a young age, facilities, funding, marketing, etc. Those who think water polo is 'unique' and therefore does not need to learn from the successful sports are part of the reason water polo is in the state it is in, from my perspective.

Ultimately, in my opinion, it is this mentality that has limited the sport. We have nothing to learn from other sports. We have nothing to learn from Eastern Europe. We have nothing to learn from California. *We* don't need to do anything different - it's all the fault of "those guys" (whoever they might be, but in this case USAWP) because *they* are supposed to be the ones building the sport. Yes, I am exaggerating to make a point, but I'll just say that in my opinion, this is not what made America great, and that mentality prevents this sport from being great in this country.

I believe that the old simplistic 80-20 rule tends to apply to most situations like this. 20% of the people do 80% of the work, and the other 80% of the people benefit. In the case of SF, OC, SD and LA, they built a culture so that it is easier for the 80% to participate. They aren't genetically superior, they just have the opportunities and more people participate. This alone makes it more competitive and generates more cream that rises to the top. The rest of the country has not done this (yet), and in order to compete that's what they need to do. This includes my area of California that is outside of those select counties - so no, I do *not* think this is an East Coast vs West Coast issue. That is, in my opinion, parochial thinking and only serves to prevent one from seeing the real issue. That is just my opinion, and others obviously see it differently.

It isn't easy to do, and it doesn't happen quickly... which is frustrating in our instant gratification society. My son will not be the primary beneficiary of building this culture, but hopefully he will gain valuable wisdom from it. As I said, we could have moved to 'where the action is', as that is what most people do in our situation. We have decided to try and change the status quo instead. Perhaps I'm just an unrealistic romantic, in that sense, but it is what I believe needs to be done to expand the reach of the sport and break the stranglehold on it by those select California counties. It is what I consider the American way - don't use politics and pressure to succeed, take what works for them, adapt it to our circumstances, apply good old fashioned hard work... and then out compete them.

Apologies for the distraction - I now return you to your regular programming... :-).

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Doc
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby Doc » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:48 pm

oldtimer,

I had planned to answer each paragraph in your post. For example here is an answer to your third paragraph:

Here you go with that term "culture" or "water polo culture". I asked you politely to give the water polo community the definition of "water polo culture" and evidently you either didn't want to give a definition or more likely you couldn't do it. If you cannot define it then how can you use it in your argument.

And then I thought about the following paragraph:

"I believe that the old simplistic 80-20 rule tends to apply to most situations like this. 20% of the people do 80% of the work, and the other 80% of the people benefit. In the case of SF, OC, SD and LA, they built a culture so that it is easier for the 80% to participate. They aren't genetically superior, they just have the opportunities and more people participate. This alone makes it more competitive and generates more cream that rises to the top. The rest of the country has not done this (yet), and in order to compete that's what they need to do. This includes my area of California that is outside of those select counties - so no, I do *not* think this is an East Coast vs West Coast issue. That is, in my opinion, parochial thinking and only serves to prevent one from seeing the real issue. That is just my opinion, and others obviously see it differently."

How could any reasonable or intelligent person believe there is such a thing as the idiotic 80-20 rule. You say " 20% of the people do 80% of the work, and the other 80% of the people benefit." Do you have any idea what such a comment does to the credibility and integrity of your posts on this message board? There are millions and millions of people on this earth who can prove unequivocally that this comment is not just a lie but rather it is a bold face lie. Your comments both disgusts and disappoints me. You are not a East Coast bigot but rather you are just a bigot. This reminds me of the 47% solution during the 2012 Presidential election.

Doc

Thesita
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby Thesita » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:18 pm

Who was the slippery rock men's coach in 1991?

east 2 west
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby east 2 west » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:42 pm

I have a question. I've noticed a lot of the boys on the cadet/youth and so on teams listing their height & weight incorrectly. Why is that, who are you fooling?

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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby oldtimer » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:56 pm

*edited for a more mature response. I must apologize for removed comment - I was just involved in a very... annoying... incident at a tournament*

Doc - Look up "Pareto Principle', and then re-read my statement about it being a simplistic rule. I also suggest you look up the definition of bigot, and reconsider. I have said several times that these are simply my opinions, and others may have different ones. Since 'winning the argument' is obviously the most important consideration for you, I'll stop here completely - despite having said I would drop it before. Somehow it is difficult to just let someone's blatant personal attack go unanswered. You can go ahead and have the last word. Sorry everyone...

keepitreal
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby keepitreal » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:47 am

It might have been mentioned before but coaching development should be the number one focus. If good coaching is there good players will follow. Putting aside the whole east coast/west coast debate lets look outside the box here...actually outside the continental US...Hawaii. Punahou School has produced 3 mens olympians over the past 4-5 olympics (chris duplanty, sean kern, brandon brooks). Pretty impressive for any school outside of Long Beach Wilson. What's most compelling is that there are 5 boys teams in the entire state and 2-3 of those are consistently average, at best. Yet with bad competition and limited club play (club is only in the summer and they play about 10 games) they have produced top notch talent and have sent a ton of guys to UCLA, a few to Stanford and plenty to smaller schools. Punahou has had the same coach for the past 30 plus years, a good coach who runs a good program. Hawaii gets no love from US water polo but it has at least one guy committed to developing players and it works. Two more Hawaii kids on the Youth teams going to Argentina next month. Anyway there are a lot of problems to moan and complain about but a lot can be solved with a good coach who is committed to his/her kids and program.

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Doc
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby Doc » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:34 am

oldtimer

The Pareto Principle was named after the Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, who observed that 80% of property in Italy was owned by 20% of the Italian population. Then some other economists changed the Principle to suit their purpose such as you did.

You said, "Somehow it is difficult to just let someone's blatant personal attack go unanswered" Do you mean sort of like the personal attack you made about me and then deleted. Maybe both of us over reacted to the situation because "bigot" may have been too strong a word to use. Probably I should have used the word "zealot". What words about me would you have changed because I believe you said I was cognitive and emotionally disabled?

Finally, why do you think your son works out 7 hours a day (your words not mine) and why does he want his team mates to do the same (your words not mine)? Is he doing all this because he wants to finish second?

Doc

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stickman
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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby stickman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:18 pm

Keepitreal,
You make a very good point about Hawaii and Punahou. I would add that Iolani, and Kamehameha have also produced several outstanding college players. Along with Ken Smith at Punahou, Aaron Chaney at Iolani is another excellent coach...with some pretty significant ties to USAWP, at least up until a few years ago.
Further The Hawaii Invitational is one of largest USAWP Sanctioned Tournaments in the country, next to JO's. I guess it's easy to understand why clubs would flock to the HI tournament every Summer as opposed to an annual event in Pennsylvania or Connecticut. But it is an example of how the willingness to 'go there' and play can benefit an area. Would allowing JO's to go back to moving around the country benefit the sport nation wide?
Again, Hawaii is an excellent example of how an area can essentially develop a successful 'water polo culture,' but it certainly helps to be able to have an annual major USAWP event in your back yard, that several top teams from around the country (and particularly CA) are going to attend every year.

I wonder if a greater effort by USAWP to encourage MORE major national events throughout the country on an annual basis would be beneficial for the sport nationwide?

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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby Apghrenegade » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:56 pm

@stickman;

It would help, and USA WP is starting to do more, and needs to be encouraged. Along these lines, I encourage all here on the site to try to attend the second annual Collegiate Alumni Water Polo Championship by USA WP in Feb 2014, in Florida. We are right now finalizing the venue for 2014, and had a successful inaugural event in Feb 2013 which saw a tightly contested final between U Mass and UCSB. Contact myself or Nick Gaffey for more details.

Talk is cheap, and on this site I am afraid that sometimes I see some of the cheapest of the cheap.

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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby The Dowager » Tue May 27, 2014 5:27 pm

At the end of this Memorial Day weekend's girls' 8th-U NTSC, I saw the two coaches' own club team members selected over several other clubs' truly outstanding (and obviously better) girls, including very strong Northwood, Extreme, Riverside, and Laguna starters. Does "development" in the team title mean that the final selections are girls who are deemed to need further development, as opposed to being the strongest players overall? What am I missing?
Also, it was reported to me by three participants that the coach's daughter had bragged early in the weekend to other girls, in the van and in a text that was shown at mealtime to several girls, that she had already been selected. Not good form, at the least. To paraphrase Fight Club: First rule of Nepotism is don't talk about the nepotism.

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Re: National Training Camp Selections???

Postby fogofsport » Tue May 27, 2014 6:13 pm

About half of the teams are already selected before the camp starts. Few of the kids selected didn't even go through the motions. Camp is to fill the spots after the Alpha players.

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