JOs and Covid 19.

The New Generation
badboy
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby badboy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:16 pm

5150wpdad wrote:
badboy wrote:
5150wpdad wrote:
badboy wrote:
polofanca wrote:Data from the U.S. Centers of Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) suggests that the novel coronavirus’s true fatality rate in the United States, which takes into account mild and asymptomatic cases, stands at 0.26 percent, about eight to 15 times lower than earlier mortality rate estimates of between two and four percent, which prompted the lockdowns.

this whole thing stinks to high heaven. open everything now and get polo going again.


Have you done the math on this? .26% of 335,000,000 isn't a small number (it's 871,000 dead Americans). For fun, let's just run it at 40% of the US population gets it - that's (.4)(335000000) = 134,000,000 x .0026 = 348,400 dead Americans, so we're about 1/3 the way there. At 80% of Americans infected (which is about where we need to be to have herd immunity), it's up to 696,800 dead.

Was there panic because we had no information, absolutely. Is it wise to just let a half a million Americans die without doing something, probably not.


More math to think about...The Most Important Coronavirus Statistic: 42% Of U.S. Deaths Are From 0.6% Of The Population

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothec ... 4ada4174cd


I feel like you're trying to say something here, but you really don't want to come out and say it. Would you view that stat differently if instead of the .6% being old, they were 4th graders? Regardless, 58% of the deaths aren't in the group you're so quick to dismiss.


Lol, "I feel..." and "Would you view that stat differently if instead of the .6 being old, they were 4th graders?"

Message board virtue signalling at its finest.

It’s pretty well established that healthy children (under 18), with no preexisting conditions, are not likely to catch the virus or if they do, will only incur minor symptoms. Sweden never closed down borders, primary schools, restaurants, or businesses, and never mandated masks, yet 99.998% of all their people under 60 have survived and their hospitals were never overburdened. Mitigate the risk and get the kids back to normalcy.

Good luck to ya.


Nah, not really. I was just wondering why "they're old, it's not our problem if they die" is prefaced any less directly here?

delcrossjeff
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby delcrossjeff » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:02 am

I'm adding this here as a cross post. I can't see how JOs would even work this year. This causes a huge number of problems for our kids from the 10u bracket where they are just starting to learn to compete to the 18u brackets which are so important for college scouting. Please read the cross post below.


COVID-19 presents a unique opportunity for USA Water Polo to align age group brackets with the rest of the world. This would alleviate many of the conflicts that are currently being tackled by USA WP, CIF, NCAA and more. More info in the petition link at the bottom.

-------------------------------------------------
So many of our kids are missing the much needed interaction with their friends and teammates. Many of these children, teens and young adults will age up next year and miss the critical competition they need to grow as students, athletes and leaders. Please read the paragraphs below along with the text within the petition which can be found in the link at the bottom of the post. The petition explains how aligning age group brackets with the rest of the world would help our children recover from the ongoing pandemic to enjoy their love of water polo and grow at athletes. Thank you!
-------------------------------------------------

Due to COVID-19, our children in the United States have missed and are currently missing out on competition experience at their age brackets in water polo. In the rest of the world, water polo age brackets exist at 11 & under (11u), 13u, 15u, 17u, 19u and 12u. Here in the US, water polo team age brackets remain 10u, 12u and so on. This presents a conflict with CIF rules, breaks up teams that have begun learning to work together, and has caused our children a nontrivial amount of emotional distress. There are additional challenges that are covered in the link at the bottom.

That beings said, the disruption to the current water polo sports season presents a fantastic opportunity for USA Water Polo to align US age groups with the rest of the world. This would allow players to compete next year with the teams that they have developed relationships with through the current season and mitigates many other conflicts. The petition is attached below which contains a more thorough discussion of the advantages of a shift. If you agree, please sign the petition and pass it along. Thank you!

Petition
http://chng.it/rZ8GtXcJ

badboy
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby badboy » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:11 pm

delcrossjeff wrote:I'm adding this here as a cross post. I can't see how JOs would even work this year. This causes a huge number of problems for our kids from the 10u bracket where they are just starting to learn to compete to the 18u brackets which are so important for college scouting. Please read the cross post below.


COVID-19 presents a unique opportunity for USA Water Polo to align age group brackets with the rest of the world. This would alleviate many of the conflicts that are currently being tackled by USA WP, CIF, NCAA and more. More info in the petition link at the bottom.

-------------------------------------------------
So many of our kids are missing the much needed interaction with their friends and teammates. Many of these children, teens and young adults will age up next year and miss the critical competition they need to grow as students, athletes and leaders. Please read the paragraphs below along with the text within the petition which can be found in the link at the bottom of the post. The petition explains how aligning age group brackets with the rest of the world would help our children recover from the ongoing pandemic to enjoy their love of water polo and grow at athletes. Thank you!
-------------------------------------------------

Due to COVID-19, our children in the United States have missed and are currently missing out on competition experience at their age brackets in water polo. In the rest of the world, water polo age brackets exist at 11 & under (11u), 13u, 15u, 17u, 19u and 12u. Here in the US, water polo team age brackets remain 10u, 12u and so on. This presents a conflict with CIF rules, breaks up teams that have begun learning to work together, and has caused our children a nontrivial amount of emotional distress. There are additional challenges that are covered in the link at the bottom.

That beings said, the disruption to the current water polo sports season presents a fantastic opportunity for USA Water Polo to align US age groups with the rest of the world. This would allow players to compete next year with the teams that they have developed relationships with through the current season and mitigates many other conflicts. The petition is attached below which contains a more thorough discussion of the advantages of a shift. If you agree, please sign the petition and pass it along. Thank you!

Petition
http://chng.it/rZ8GtXcJ


I don't think it'll ever happen, but this doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

sbdad
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby sbdad » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:44 pm

I think it is a great idea. First, all of the kids that are at the top of their age group this year get another chance at next years JO's. Second, most Juniors turning Seniors in high school would be the oldest of the 17U group that would make JO's 17U a great tool for the following years recruiting class. It does not seem that hard to do.

wpolo93
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby wpolo93 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:05 pm

delcrossjeff wrote:
Due to COVID-19, our children in the United States have missed and are currently missing out on competition experience at their age brackets in water polo. In the rest of the world, water polo age brackets exist at 11 & under (11u), 13u, 15u, 17u, 19u and 12u. Here in the US, water polo team age brackets remain 10u, 12u and so on.


This is not entirely correct. As far as I know in Europe the cutoff date is January 1 and not August 1.
In other words, here in the USA a player's age division is determined by the athlete's age on August 1st of the year in which the tournament is being held. But, say at the 2019 LEN Men's Junior Water Polo Championship (that took part during 08/11/2019-08/18/2019 in Tbilisi) kids were 2002 and older with oldest born in January 2002. The same was true for the 2019 LEN Women's Junior Water Polo Championship (that took place in September 2019 in Greece). I assume that FINA also uses January 1 as age cutoff date.

badboy
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby badboy » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:03 pm

wpolo93 wrote:
delcrossjeff wrote:
Due to COVID-19, our children in the United States have missed and are currently missing out on competition experience at their age brackets in water polo. In the rest of the world, water polo age brackets exist at 11 & under (11u), 13u, 15u, 17u, 19u and 12u. Here in the US, water polo team age brackets remain 10u, 12u and so on.


This is not entirely correct. As far as I know in Europe the cutoff date is January 1 and not August 1.
In other words, here in the USA a player's age division is determined by the athlete's age on August 1st of the year in which the tournament is being held. But, say at the 2019 LEN Men's Junior Water Polo Championship (that took part during 08/11/2019-08/18/2019 in Tbilisi) kids were 2002 and older with oldest born in January 2002. The same was true for the 2019 LEN Women's Junior Water Polo Championship (that took place in September 2019 in Greece). I assume that FINA also uses January 1 as age cutoff date.


I think US Soccer went through this same switch a few years back. Predictably, some people loved it (people with mid-summer birthdays) and some people hated it (people with December birthdays). Nobody is ever happy lol. The August 1 never quite made sense to me for polo since it's possible for a kid to play two full years as a 12U, including JO's, and never be actually be 12. At worst, it would seem a July 1 date would at least allow everyone to play at their age for a few weeks.

Rational
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby Rational » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:03 am

@delcrossjeff:

College coaches can evaluate rising Juniors and Seniors, Keeping them together helps the recruiting process as coaches don't have to split their time. 17u would have rising Sophomores and Juniors, right?

Who would play 19u? Current Seniors and freshmen in college? I think it was back in 2011 USAWP tried out the 20u or 21u division at JO's and it was a bust. Not enough teams entered, too many kids double-rostered at 18s and 21's to give enough depth to both. There's not enough college freshmen currently coming back to make the 19u division feasible, this would become a death spiral for 18's as they wouldn't have a home their senior year, further exacerbating the current problem of dropoff in participation after HS.

Plus - our women's National team doesn't need any help on the International stage.

BayBoy
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby BayBoy » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:09 pm

Yes both soccer and lacrosse (with age versus grade) have adjusted age cutoffs. FINA uses the age on December 31, as is commonplace for international competition.

So while the benefit would be more closely matching club year groups with internationals and ODP groups, the downside would be losing the diversity the August cutoff provides JOs. I don’t know enough about the Fall ‘bonus’ birthdays in polo to write about implications. But the sense I get is that the JO cutoff helps those late fall birthday kids who might struggle as ‘young’ players in their international brackets, as Gladwell outlined with his January and February findings.

wpolo93
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby wpolo93 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:53 pm

August 1 (or perhaps even better September 1) cutoff date makes a lot of sense because it (mostly) keeps kids from the same grade together yet it is flexible enough so "abnormally old" or "abnormally young" kids from the same grade are placed at correct age level.

badboy
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby badboy » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:21 pm

wpolo93 wrote:August 1 (or perhaps even better September 1) cutoff date makes a lot of sense because it (mostly) keeps kids from the same grade together yet it is flexible enough so "abnormally old" or "abnormally young" kids from the same grade are placed at correct age level.


With 2-year age brackets, that's not all the compelling. Every year, teams have kids from 3 different grades mixed together.

wpolo93
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby wpolo93 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:09 am

badboy wrote:
wpolo93 wrote:August 1 (or perhaps even better September 1) cutoff date makes a lot of sense because it (mostly) keeps kids from the same grade together yet it is flexible enough so "abnormally old" or "abnormally young" kids from the same grade are placed at correct age level.


With 2-year age brackets, that's not all the compelling. Every year, teams have kids from 3 different grades mixed together.


One does not contradict the other. Again, late summer cut off date mostly keeps kids from the same grade together.

badboy
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby badboy » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:45 am

wpolo93 wrote:
badboy wrote:
wpolo93 wrote:August 1 (or perhaps even better September 1) cutoff date makes a lot of sense because it (mostly) keeps kids from the same grade together yet it is flexible enough so "abnormally old" or "abnormally young" kids from the same grade are placed at correct age level.


With 2-year age brackets, that's not all the compelling. Every year, teams have kids from 3 different grades mixed together.


One does not contradict the other. Again, late summer cut off date mostly keeps kids from the same grade together.


Is that important? My daughter's team this year had 2 starters in 7th grade, 4 in 6th and 1 in 5th. I don't know that there's anything compelling about keeping this line-up together. I get the idea that you want to have your championship at the end of the "season", but plenty of other sports are birth year and do just fine. None of the current rules are changing anytime soon so probably doesn't matter.

wpolo93
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby wpolo93 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:56 am

There are quite a few clubs where kids study together and play together. I think it is nice. Also helps with attracting new kids.

So basically, what I mean is that say three kids from the same grade of the same elementary school start playing water polo they are highly likely to play together all 7-10 years. This does not mean of course that the team will consist only of kids from that school/that grade.

For big clubs these factors are not that important since kids can easily end up on different teams (A,B,C) of the same age group.

Sctrojanje
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby Sctrojanje » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:32 pm

Hi,

Changing the age group is a extremely bad idea. USA Soccer went through this three or four years ago and it was a disaster.

The age group concept is to allow our children to compete at the maturity level physically that they belong. Yes all children age differently and that is the reason they can play up.

There is a white paper floating around that talks about less severe and more severe birthday's. One of the main points is that birthday's in August to December would force children who are not physically mature to miss out on playing into their maturity level and would be aged up.

Yes, I understand the whole "it allows the National Coaches a chance to follow age groups easier" but we are only talking 14 children in each age group team. The way USA Water Polo has the children setup for ODP and National Competition works and we should not jump to fix a issue that is not a problem...

If your fired up about problems how about continuity among the three different rule books? Why do we have three sets of rules for Water Polo (FINA for Club Teams, NFHS for High Schools, NCAA for JUCO and Universities). We need one set of rules. I once heard someone say "JO's is not JO's without SET appealing a ruling in the water to change the game". the Referees are stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to keep the three different rule books they ref out of seperated. They call a foul, but wait, that is not a foul under FINA, only under NFHS, appeal....Children should not have to figure out "okay, I am playing in this tournament and FINA Rules take precedence". The National Body needs to pull everyone together and say 'this is it, we work as one and merge the three". A USA Water Polo National Rules Book that is adopted by NFHS, NCAA and USA Club Teams.

My two cents.

badboy
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Re: JOs and Covid 19.

Postby badboy » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:13 pm

Sctrojanje wrote:Hi,

Changing the age group is a extremely bad idea. USA Soccer went through this three or four years ago and it was a disaster.

The age group concept is to allow our children to compete at the maturity level physically that they belong. Yes all children age differently and that is the reason they can play up.

There is a white paper floating around that talks about less severe and more severe birthday's. One of the main points is that birthday's in August to December would force children who are not physically mature to miss out on playing into their maturity level and would be aged up.

Yes, I understand the whole "it allows the National Coaches a chance to follow age groups easier" but we are only talking 14 children in each age group team. The way USA Water Polo has the children setup for ODP and National Competition works and we should not jump to fix a issue that is not a problem...

If your fired up about problems how about continuity among the three different rule books? Why do we have three sets of rules for Water Polo (FINA for Club Teams, NFHS for High Schools, NCAA for JUCO and Universities). We need one set of rules. I once heard someone say "JO's is not JO's without SET appealing a ruling in the water to change the game". the Referees are stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to keep the three different rule books they ref out of seperated. They call a foul, but wait, that is not a foul under FINA, only under NFHS, appeal....Children should not have to figure out "okay, I am playing in this tournament and FINA Rules take precedence". The National Body needs to pull everyone together and say 'this is it, we work as one and merge the three". A USA Water Polo National Rules Book that is adopted by NFHS, NCAA and USA Club Teams.

My two cents.


I'm pretty familiar with the soccer change and while it was stressful for a bit, it was hardly a disaster.

As for the age group, the ONLY difference in changing the dates is which segment of the kids gets the short stick. As it stands, if you're born on August 2, you're gravy. If you're July 31, you're hosed. Change the dates and the glory birthday is January 1, and the short stick is December 31. Same problems, different kids.

Honestly, if the idea is to keep kids at the same grade level, they should move the date to September 1, which is where most schools are headed with grade cutoffs, at least in CA (and we all know that's the only place that really matters in polo...)

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