2021 Season

Mens College Water Polo
5150wpdad
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby 5150wpdad » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:30 pm

McKlintock wrote:
ephpolo wrote:Unfortunately, I don't think the tournament gets bigger until several non-MPSF teams are competitive in the NCAA tournament--and the current arrangement makes that very difficult. Harder for them to get in; harder for them to advance if they do.

Maybe the way to get other team more competitive is to limit the number of guys in a program. The fact that usc and ucla have 30+ guys impacts the competitiveness of other programs. Just think about the guys in those programs not on the rosters this last weekend. How well could this non-rostered UCLA group do:

Griggs, Rogers, Pulice, Shipman, Nightingale, Liechty, Loth, Crooks, Laurland.

Could easily do a similar list for usc. I know it won't likely change, but certainly could help spread the talent.


Yup, spread the talent. 40+ on UCSB roster with RS's included....Limit rosters similar to JO's, Olympics, and other competitions. Anyone know if they have limits in Europe leagues?...

GoBears!
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby GoBears! » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:00 pm

ruin4life wrote:Break up MPSF. Each of the big 4 schools pick a conference to join so they all make it to the NCAA playoffs. Or just remove Fordham and add Stanford instead. Stanford deserves a spot in the NCAA’s as they are the only all-home grown team at this year.

Stanfurd doesn't "deserve" anything. If you can't play your way in that is just the way it is.

GoBears!
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby GoBears! » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:10 pm

McKlintock wrote:Maybe the way to get other team more competitive is to limit the number of guys in a program. The fact that usc and ucla have 30+ guys impacts the competitiveness of other programs. Just think about the guys in those programs not on the rosters this last weekend.

Right. Tell a person they cannot go to the school of their choice to play for the coach of their choice. The NCAA only allows 4.5 scholarships in DI Men's Water Polo. If the NCAA limit was 30, I'd be fine with limiting them to 14, but as it is, the limit is already well below the number of players required for a team.

Let other programs hire coaches and create incentives to get athletes to want to come to their school.

PS We have a family friend who could have gone to any program in CA, but instead chose to go to an Ivy school because his life goals were bigger than just winning an NCAA Water Polo Championship.

Rbpolo0414
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Rbpolo0414 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:48 pm

GoBears! wrote:
McKlintock wrote:Maybe the way to get other team more competitive is to limit the number of guys in a program. The fact that usc and ucla have 30+ guys impacts the competitiveness of other programs. Just think about the guys in those programs not on the rosters this last weekend.

Right. Tell a person they cannot go to the school of their choice to play for the coach of their choice. The NCAA only allows 4.5 scholarships in DI Men's Water Polo. If the NCAA limit was 30, I'd be fine with limiting them to 14, but as it is, the limit is already well below the number of players required for a team.

Let other programs hire coaches and create incentives to get athletes to want to come to their school.

PS We have a family friend who could have gone to any program in CA, but instead chose to go to an Ivy school because his life goals were bigger than just winning an NCAA Water Polo Championship.


Maybe we should limit the rosters of the Ivies even more because they are getting too many elite recruits. Shame on them for taking players that rightfully belong to the GCC schools.

Justafan22
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Justafan22 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:56 pm

5150wpdad wrote:
McKlintock wrote:
ephpolo wrote:Unfortunately, I don't think the tournament gets bigger until several non-MPSF teams are competitive in the NCAA tournament--and the current arrangement makes that very difficult. Harder for them to get in; harder for them to advance if they do.

Maybe the way to get other team more competitive is to limit the number of guys in a program. The fact that usc and ucla have 30+ guys impacts the competitiveness of other programs. Just think about the guys in those programs not on the rosters this last weekend. How well could this non-rostered UCLA group do:

Griggs, Rogers, Pulice, Shipman, Nightingale, Liechty, Loth, Crooks, Laurland.

Could easily do a similar list for usc. I know it won't likely change, but certainly could help spread the talent.


Yup, spread the talent. 40+ on UCSB roster with RS's included....Limit rosters similar to JO's, Olympics, and other competitions. Anyone know if they have limits in Europe leagues?...


How does a school end up with 40 players on their roster. Do they just take any player that reaches out and then gets admitted to the school?

You could also tell the schools, "OK anybody that is on your roster, has to be on your travel team, even if they don't dress for the games" That will get them thinking on how many players they want to pay to travel :lol:

Cal Polo Enthusiast
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:35 pm

Justafan22 wrote:How does a school end up with 40 players on their roster. Do they just take any player that reaches out and then gets admitted to the school?

You could also tell the schools, "OK anybody that is on your roster, has to be on your travel team, even if they don't dress for the games" That will get them thinking on how many players they want to pay to travel :lol:


The pandemic has created a backlog of players. Of a roster of 40 (including many RS) up to 25% will be seniors this year and 25% next year only due to the extra year of eligibility. The large rosters will be an attempt to not lose potentially good players for next season and particularly the season after. Most probably aren't that great but outside the top 4 coaches have to work with what they have got particularly in terms of domestic players.

If you wanted to make NCAA finals more interesting then there should be a proper 8 team competition now, with MPSF and GCC getting a second automatic bid and all teams playing the same number of games, The current format virtually hands the competition to one of the 2 tops seeds. If you can't win 3 games in a row you don't deserve to be NCAA champions.

In the longer term the answer is harder as it requires change that will never probably happen. Without some sort of equivalent to salary caps and all teams having to find the full 4.5 scholarships (probably with NCAA funding required) then merely restricting the rosters in number will do nothing.

And making teams take all their roster on the road will just further advantage the big 4 who can afford it.

PoloNHB
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby PoloNHB » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:50 pm

GoBears! wrote:
McKlintock wrote:Maybe the way to get other team more competitive is to limit the number of guys in a program. The fact that usc and ucla have 30+ guys impacts the competitiveness of other programs. Just think about the guys in those programs not on the rosters this last weekend.

Right. Tell a person they cannot go to the school of their choice to play for the coach of their choice. .

Not sure I follow. Every year there are plenty of players who don't get to go to the school of their choice to play for the coach of their choice. I agree with the idea of limiting the number of players in a program to say 25 total and maybe even a max per year (say only 7 per grade?). Spreading out the talent more would be a good thing. I also agree that it won't happen.

Cal Polo Enthusiast
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:53 pm

Cal Polo Enthusiast wrote:
Justafan22 wrote:How does a school end up with 40 players on their roster. Do they just take any player that reaches out and then gets admitted to the school?

You could also tell the schools, "OK anybody that is on your roster, has to be on your travel team, even if they don't dress for the games" That will get them thinking on how many players they want to pay to travel :lol:


The pandemic has created a backlog of players. Of a large roster (including many RS) up to 25% will be seniors this year and 25% next year only due to the extra year of eligibility. The large rosters will be an attempt to not lose potentially good players for next season and particularly the season after. Most probably aren't that great but outside the top 4 coaches have to work with what they have got particularly in terms of domestic players.

If you wanted to make NCAA finals more interesting straight away then there should be a proper 8 team competition now, with MPSF and GCC getting a second automatic bid and all teams playing the same number of games, The current format virtually hands the competition to one of the 2 tops seeds. If you can't win 3 games in a row you don't deserve to be NCAA champions.

In the longer term the answer is harder as it requires change that will never probably happen. Without some sort of equivalent to salary caps and all teams having to find the full 4.5 scholarships (probably with NCAA funding required) then merely restricting the rosters in number will do nothing.

And making teams take all their roster on the road will just further advantage the big 4 who can afford it.

PoloNHB
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby PoloNHB » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:55 pm

Cal Polo Enthusiast wrote:The pandemic has created a backlog of players. Of a roster of 40 (including many RS) up to 25% will be seniors this year and 25% next year only due to the extra year of eligibility. The large rosters will be an attempt to not lose potentially good players for next season and particularly the season after. Most probably aren't that great but outside the top 4 coaches have to work with what they have got particularly in terms of domestic players.

I think it has been discussed before, but I don't think allowing the additional covid year for everyone who still got to play last year was very well thought through. It's impacting several sports and will for a few years.

Cal Polo Enthusiast
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:11 pm

PoloNHB wrote:
Cal Polo Enthusiast wrote:The pandemic has created a backlog of players. Of a roster of 40 (including many RS) up to 25% will be seniors this year and 25% next year only due to the extra year of eligibility. The large rosters will be an attempt to not lose potentially good players for next season and particularly the season after. Most probably aren't that great but outside the top 4 coaches have to work with what they have got particularly in terms of domestic players.

I think it has been discussed before, but I don't think allowing the additional covid year for everyone who still got to play last year was very well thought through. It's impacting several sports and will for a few years.


I agree. A better change would have been allowed players a second redshirt year if they or their team didn't play last season. It would have created some of the same issues but given less advantage to the big teams who could afford to play during the pandemic.

polo12345
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby polo12345 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:14 pm

They could limit the number of foreign players to lets say 3 per team,,,,European leagues limit the number of foreign athletes on their teams. That is about the only limitation that would work to reduce roster sizes. If the athlete wants to go to the "said" school, he sure knows what he is up against. His choice

Cal Polo Enthusiast
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:00 pm

polo12345 wrote:They could limit the number of foreign players to lets say 3 per team,,,,European leagues limit the number of foreign athletes on their teams. That is about the only limitation that would work to reduce roster sizes. If the athlete wants to go to the "said" school, he sure knows what he is up against. His choice


I don't think it is legal to restrict numbers based on nationality if the club and player is from an EU country. Serbia and Montenegro might be different and there may be a limit on non-EU players.

And would restricting foreigners make much difference to shifting the power away from the top 4? USC have a 6 foreigners but not all are that important to them so USC, Cal. Pacific, Long Beach and SJSU would be weakened to varying degrees. However, UCLA, Stanford and UCSB would not be affected at all. Long Beach and SJSU would be hurt the most as they both have foreigner heavy rosters and would find it harder to recruit the same quality domestically and of course if USC and Cal lost overseas players they would recruit a few more of the better local players.

So I'm not sure it is an answer to reducing the inbuild dominance of the top 4.

GoBears!
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby GoBears! » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:31 pm

PoloNHB wrote:
GoBears! wrote:
McKlintock wrote:Maybe the way to get other team more competitive is to limit the number of guys in a program. The fact that usc and ucla have 30+ guys impacts the competitiveness of other programs. Just think about the guys in those programs not on the rosters this last weekend.

Right. Tell a person they cannot go to the school of their choice to play for the coach of their choice. .

Not sure I follow. Every year there are plenty of players who don't get to go to the school of their choice to play for the coach of their choice. I agree with the idea of limiting the number of players in a program to say 25 total and maybe even a max per year (say only 7 per grade?). Spreading out the talent more would be a good thing. I also agree that it won't happen.

We are talking about a player who wants to go to a school, and can get admitted, and a coach who wants him on his roster. It should not even be necessary to explain that. What we are talking about is a player who wants to go to a school, is admitted, and the coach wants him on his roster, but an outside entity wants to impinge on that player's freedom to go to the school and be on its roster.

I don't recall if college water polo ever had JV or Frosh rosters, but other sports like football and basketball did at one time, especially when freshmen were not allowed to compete on varsity squads.

GoBears!
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby GoBears! » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:35 pm

Cal Polo Enthusiast wrote:If you wanted to make NCAA finals more interesting then there should be a proper 8 team competition now, with MPSF and GCC getting a second automatic bid and all teams playing the same number of games.

The number of teams in an NCAA playoff are determined by the number of programs, not simply what people want. If there was an 8 team bracket, the leagues should only get one automatic bid, just like in basketball.

Cal Polo Enthusiast
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:45 am

GoBears! wrote:
Cal Polo Enthusiast wrote:If you wanted to make NCAA finals more interesting then there should be a proper 8 team competition now, with MPSF and GCC getting a second automatic bid and all teams playing the same number of games.

The number of teams in an NCAA playoff are determined by the number of programs, not simply what people want. If there was an 8 team bracket, the leagues should only get one automatic bid, just like in basketball.


I was just talking about what would make a better competition and not what the constrains of NCAA regulations determine. I don't expect them to do anything of note to actually improve things.

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