2021 Season

Mens College Water Polo
H2Opolo10
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby H2Opolo10 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:09 am

Apghrenegade wrote:Many many positives to the steadily growing presence of internationals in NCAA D1 water polo. First, we see the better clubs getting teams and individuals over to the places like Hungary and Croatia for actual playing experience. I can now call several clubs 'home'...watching and helping a top high school goalie prospect in my new home program grow every practice. His summer 2021 trip to Croatia was a huge development plus. Then we have the internationals who have 'played and stayed' in various coaching and program development roles all over the USA. Spreading the best developmental practices from their home nations into USA water polo, developing American talent. Finally, we are beginning to see the use of the gap year before or as a substiture for a red shirt year...to play in Europe.

The main thing slowing down the process of USA water polo catching up to Europe is the attitude we see on this board. The shooting skills gaps has closed quickly with some top Americans on the national team. The way that will continue is by the in depth talent and player development cross breeding I have described here. More NCAA programs means more opportunity for all boys and young man to play after high school. Where are all the European woman...complaining that the dominance and top quality of the USA woman's NCAA D1 programs...are siphoning off their top young female players?

The narrow minded 'America First' thinking on this board is not only ugly, it's bad for our water polo.


Not to mention the years of playing with and against top foreigners. Surely Alex Obert benefitted from playing with Erdeyli, Tomasevic, etc. Going up against them in practice. Learning from them. Daube, Ehrhardt, Molthen shooting against Porter in practices. Youth players who can go to games and see the incredible fakes and shots of Ivan Rackov, Cristiano Mirarchi, Kostas Genidounias, etc and learn from them. I could go on forever with examples. I’m glad foreigners choose to come here to play. It’s good for the sport and the USA players. Anyone who plays the victim card is just looking for excuses.

Cal Polo Enthusiast
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:00 am

If we could level the field financially the number of foreign players would be almost irrelevant. But that isn't going to happen so let's blame the foreigners. 8)

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2plyBathingSuit
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby 2plyBathingSuit » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:01 am

Yes, I love the wave of foreign nationals on the American scene as well (believe me!). Why not completely take-over the American College water polo system...whose stopping them?....nobody of course! As Apghrenegade "wrote": (I'm paraphrasing here)...quit being so narrow-minded!!!!!!! The more foreign nationals....the better. Can't stand those who play the "victim" card either., H20polo10 has a point. Everyone should think like him/her!!!!

Cal Polo Enthusiast
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:05 am

2plyBathingSuit wrote:Yes, I love the wave of foreign nationals on the American scene as well (believe me!). Why not completely take-over the American College water polo system...whose stopping them?....nobody of course! As Apghrenegade "wrote": (I'm paraphrasing here)...quit being so narrow-minded!!!!!!! The more foreign nationals....the better. Can't stand those who play the "victim" card either., H20polo10 has a point. Everyone should think like him/her!!!!


You do like hyperbole.

If you limit overseas players numbers either on the overall roster or the travelling roster it doesn't neccesarily help level the playing field.

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2plyBathingSuit
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby 2plyBathingSuit » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:35 am

Cal Polo Enthusiast wrote:
2plyBathingSuit wrote:Yes, I love the wave of foreign nationals on the American scene as well (believe me!). Why not completely take-over the American College water polo system...whose stopping them?....nobody of course! As Apghrenegade "wrote": (I'm paraphrasing here)...quit being so narrow-minded!!!!!!! The more foreign nationals....the better. Can't stand those who play the "victim" card either., H20polo10 has a point. Everyone should think like him/her!!!!


You do like hyperbole.

If you limit overseas players numbers either on the overall roster or the travelling roster it doesn't neccesarily help level the playing field.


I never advocated limiting overseas players...you're confusing me with somebody else. The more, the merrier.

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2plyBathingSuit
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby 2plyBathingSuit » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:49 am

Here is my future vision for the big three (3)...recruit "more" from Eastern Europe...or succumb to teams like LBS or SJS. Conform or be cast aside. The future is here...now.

arbolado
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby arbolado » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:03 am

The problem I have is these coaches don’t really look to recruit and develop any talent. If you can’t say you were on a travel roster for USA water polo then they ignore you. ODP is their recruiting tool. And then they use their connections in Europe to find players. Plus I am puzzled by being able to have more than six on a roster.

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Re: 2021 Season

Postby stickman » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:55 pm

If we look at threads about our men’s national team, the reoccurring thought is that we need to get our guys playing in europe to become more competitive. Yet we have a problem with foreigners coming here to play with our guys?

Also, the idea that these college coaches aren’t recruiting or trying to develop US players is crazy.
The good US players that those eastern coaches are recruiting would rather ride pine for 4 years at California school than be a top gun at Fordham. The good US players that Watson or Arroyo recruit would rather sit on SC or Cals bench than go to SJSU or LBSU.

The fact is, most of these schools are relegated to recruiting foreign players in a effort to be competitive.

UCI is a good example of a team that doesn’t typically bring in foreign players, (2 on the current roster.). The result; a former perennial top 5-7 program is in the bottom half of the top 20 and getting worse. The coaches job is on the line (per posters on this site). That’s what you get when you’re left with second tier US talent.

Hunt will will either start turning heavily overseas, or his replacement will.

Justafan22
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Justafan22 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:04 pm

stickman wrote:If we look at threads about our men’s national team, the reoccurring thought is that we need to get our guys playing in europe to become more competitive. Yet we have a problem with foreigners coming here to play with our guys?

Also, the idea that these college coaches aren’t recruiting or trying to develop US players is crazy.
The good US players that those eastern coaches are recruiting would rather ride pine for 4 years at California school than be a top gun at Fordham. The good US players that Watson or Arroyo recruit would rather sit on SC or Cals bench than go to SJSU or LBSU.

The fact is, most of these schools are relegated to recruiting foreign players in a effort to be competitive.

UCI is a good example of a team that doesn’t typically bring in foreign players, (2 on the current roster.). The result; a former perennial top 5-7 program is in the bottom half of the top 20 and getting worse. The coaches job is on the line (per posters on this site). That’s what you get when you’re left with second tier US talent.

Hunt will will either start turning heavily overseas, or his replacement will.


Your points all make sense. You usually get better as a player, because of the every day practices. So if you practice every day againts top talent, whether it is American or foreign talent, you should get better. Games also count of course, so if you ride the bench you won't get that game experience, but in practice is when you work on things to get better, so you are correct, having overseas players on the roster, exposes our players to different techniques or styles, however I still think a max allowed of foreign players should be instituted. All soccer leagues in Europe, have a max on foreign players, and these are pro leagues where winning is everything.

Part of growing the sport, is also to somehow appeal to mainstream fans. It's hard enough that the every day fan does not understand the rules of water polo, but if you get to these big college tournaments, and somehow come across it on TV, and every player is from another country, I doubt that you will stop and watch it. I know it's wishful thinking, and WP will never become very appealing to outside fans, but you have to try.

We are talking about American colleges . You can't have half the team be from out of the US. Or the whole team in one case.

The foreign players, hey they see an opportunity to come and study in the US and play and get better at the same time, so more power to them. Our coaches, as you mention, will do what they have to do, and recruit where they can, but if NCAA puts a hard cap, then they would all be limitted by the same cap, and would have to be selective in what foreign player they bring

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Swearengen
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Swearengen » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:39 pm

Justafan22 wrote:
stickman wrote:If we look at threads about our men’s national team, the reoccurring thought is that we need to get our guys playing in europe to become more competitive. Yet we have a problem with foreigners coming here to play with our guys?

Also, the idea that these college coaches aren’t recruiting or trying to develop US players is crazy.
The good US players that those eastern coaches are recruiting would rather ride pine for 4 years at California school than be a top gun at Fordham. The good US players that Watson or Arroyo recruit would rather sit on SC or Cals bench than go to SJSU or LBSU.

The fact is, most of these schools are relegated to recruiting foreign players in a effort to be competitive.

UCI is a good example of a team that doesn’t typically bring in foreign players, (2 on the current roster.). The result; a former perennial top 5-7 program is in the bottom half of the top 20 and getting worse. The coaches job is on the line (per posters on this site). That’s what you get when you’re left with second tier US talent.

Hunt will will either start turning heavily overseas, or his replacement will.


Your points all make sense. You usually get better as a player, because of the every day practices. So if you practice every day againts top talent, whether it is American or foreign talent, you should get better. Games also count of course, so if you ride the bench you won't get that game experience, but in practice is when you work on things to get better, so you are correct, having overseas players on the roster, exposes our players to different techniques or styles, however I still think a max allowed of foreign players should be instituted. All soccer leagues in Europe, have a max on foreign players, and these are pro leagues where winning is everything.

Part of growing the sport, is also to somehow appeal to mainstream fans. It's hard enough that the every day fan does not understand the rules of water polo, but if you get to these big college tournaments, and somehow come across it on TV, and every player is from another country, I doubt that you will stop and watch it. I know it's wishful thinking, and WP will never become very appealing to outside fans, but you have to try.

We are talking about American colleges . You can't have half the team be from out of the US. Or the whole team in one case.

The foreign players, hey they see an opportunity to come and study in the US and play and get better at the same time, so more power to them. Our coaches, as you mention, will do what they have to do, and recruit where they can, but if NCAA puts a hard cap, then they would all be limitted by the same cap, and would have to be selective in what foreign player they bring


You can't do it. Because if it was done the improvement in parity that we have seen in recent years (UOP making the finals, for example) would not exist, and it would mean the elimination of a place like St. Francis, which is, from what I hear, based around attracting foreign students to the US. We do not want to lose any more men's programs! A better answer is roster limits that are actually enforced. That would force coaches to decide if they want to go foreign and forego domestic talent or not. It would eliminate the PAC 12 schools stringing players along as they pick through their choices until the last minute and from taking every single player they think has a chance to help them. That is just not right for the sport. The PAC 12 coaches like being in the finals every year and they only look out for themselves, not for the good of the sport as they claim. Thus the emergence of the GCC Conference. They need to have rules that are actually enforced regarding roster limits, not some nebulous "guideline" from their university about how many players they might be able to keep. Set a hard 25 or even 22 person roster limit for college water polo and see what happens!
"I'm declaring myself conductor of this meeting as I have the bribe sheet." - Al Swearengen

Justafan22
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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Justafan22 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:03 pm

Swearengen wrote:
Justafan22 wrote:
stickman wrote:If we look at threads about our men’s national team, the reoccurring thought is that we need to get our guys playing in europe to become more competitive. Yet we have a problem with foreigners coming here to play with our guys?

Also, the idea that these college coaches aren’t recruiting or trying to develop US players is crazy.
The good US players that those eastern coaches are recruiting would rather ride pine for 4 years at California school than be a top gun at Fordham. The good US players that Watson or Arroyo recruit would rather sit on SC or Cals bench than go to SJSU or LBSU.

The fact is, most of these schools are relegated to recruiting foreign players in a effort to be competitive.

UCI is a good example of a team that doesn’t typically bring in foreign players, (2 on the current roster.). The result; a former perennial top 5-7 program is in the bottom half of the top 20 and getting worse. The coaches job is on the line (per posters on this site). That’s what you get when you’re left with second tier US talent.

Hunt will will either start turning heavily overseas, or his replacement will.


Your points all make sense. You usually get better as a player, because of the every day practices. So if you practice every day againts top talent, whether it is American or foreign talent, you should get better. Games also count of course, so if you ride the bench you won't get that game experience, but in practice is when you work on things to get better, so you are correct, having overseas players on the roster, exposes our players to different techniques or styles, however I still think a max allowed of foreign players should be instituted. All soccer leagues in Europe, have a max on foreign players, and these are pro leagues where winning is everything.

Part of growing the sport, is also to somehow appeal to mainstream fans. It's hard enough that the every day fan does not understand the rules of water polo, but if you get to these big college tournaments, and somehow come across it on TV, and every player is from another country, I doubt that you will stop and watch it. I know it's wishful thinking, and WP will never become very appealing to outside fans, but you have to try.

We are talking about American colleges . You can't have half the team be from out of the US. Or the whole team in one case.

The foreign players, hey they see an opportunity to come and study in the US and play and get better at the same time, so more power to them. Our coaches, as you mention, will do what they have to do, and recruit where they can, but if NCAA puts a hard cap, then they would all be limitted by the same cap, and would have to be selective in what foreign player they bring


You can't do it. Because if it was done the improvement in parity that we have seen in recent years (UOP making the finals, for example) would not exist, and it would mean the elimination of a place like St. Francis, which is, from what I hear, based around attracting foreign students to the US. We do not want to lose any more men's programs! A better answer is roster limits that are actually enforced. That would force coaches to decide if they want to go foreign and forego domestic talent or not. It would eliminate the PAC 12 schools stringing players along as they pick through their choices until the last minute and from taking every single player they think has a chance to help them. That is just not right for the sport. The PAC 12 coaches like being in the finals every year and they only look out for themselves, not for the good of the sport as they claim. Thus the emergence of the GCC Conference. They need to have rules that are actually enforced regarding roster limits, not some nebulous "guideline" from their university about how many players they might be able to keep. Set a hard 25 or even 22 person roster limit for college water polo and see what happens!


Correct, we definitely do not want to lose any men's or women's WP programs, however if you limit roster size to say something like 25 for example, then a team like UCSB who currently has 40, would need to purge out 15 players, which would then move and take up other spots on weaker teams.
That would definitely improve parity, but overall, would it reduce the amount of kids 'playing' waterpolo in college and take away those opportunities.

I know this probably has something to do with scholarships, but I picked 10 college basketball programs at random, (UCLA, USC, Villanova, CBU, ect ect) Basically different size schools. And all of them has basketball rosters of on average 16/17 players. I think Arizona State had 21 and was the most I found. So how do they do it. Is it because so many colleges offer basketball programs, that they had to put limits on roster size ?

I'm not saying one way is better than other, I'm just really wondering how basketball does it, or why they do it

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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:00 pm

Justafan22 wrote:All soccer leagues in Europe, have a max on foreign players, and these are pro leagues where winning is everything.


The EU technically makes it illegal to restrict the movement and employment of EU players so there is a workaround compromise that means clubs have to nominate a squad of 25 that includes a minimum of 8 home-grown players. Players who have been with a club for 3 years before they are 21 are counted as home grown no matter their nationality. Clubs can employ more foreign players as long as they stick to the quotas in squads. This rule does help stop rich leagues becoming almost totally foreign player dominated but it does nothing to stop the wealthiest clubs always winning as they buy the players they want for the future and loan them out.

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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Rbpolo0414 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:03 pm

D1 basketball has 13 scholarships per team, so they are going to fill those 13 spots, then a few walk ons to fill out the roster (who almost never play). There are many different schools to choose from and scholarships are guaranteed. If you want parity in water polo, bump the scholarships up to 8 and guarantee them. Players will start to spread out when they have the option to get a free education.

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Re: 2021 Season

Postby ole'gauchos » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:30 pm

Rbpolo0414 wrote:D1 basketball has 13 scholarships per team, so they are going to fill those 13 spots, then a few walk ons to fill out the roster (who almost never play). There are many different schools to choose from and scholarships are guaranteed. If you want parity in water polo, bump the scholarships up to 8 and guarantee them. Players will start to spread out when they have the option to get a free education.

absolutely agree!

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Re: 2021 Season

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:44 pm

Sounds good but I'd imagine there isn't any chance of the NCAA increasing the number of scholarships and even less chance of them funding them.

Good idea though it is wouldn't that actually increase the number of overseas players?

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