MPSF Invitational

Mens College Water Polo
Rational
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Rational » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:05 pm

What is a coach's job? is it to develop domestic talent or to win? College is all about recruiting, (imagine a 10 point scale) - I bet Bruce has his sights set on 8's and 9's and the only US kids that'll talk to him are 6's and 7's. So if Bruce wants to be competitive and meet the performance based monetary goals in his contract for win % and national ranking, then what should he do? What would you do? Only take the 6's and 7's, fall out of the top 15 ranking and lose your $3000 bonus? (hypothetical numbers, I'm not privy to his contract).

Now, with that said - I've made previous posts about how expensive foreign student athletes are, and how preposterous it is for a public school to have over 5 foreign men with the 4.5 scholarship cap.

Nohorsepolo
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Nohorsepolo » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:22 pm

Rational wrote:What is a coach's job? is it to develop domestic talent or to win? College is all about recruiting, (imagine a 10 point scale) - I bet Bruce has his sights set on 8's and 9's and the only US kids that'll talk to him are 6's and 7's. So if Bruce wants to be competitive and meet the performance based monetary goals in his contract for win % and national ranking, then what should he do? What would you do? Only take the 6's and 7's, fall out of the top 15 ranking and lose your $3000 bonus? (hypothetical numbers, I'm not privy to his contract).

Now, with that said - I've made previous posts about how expensive foreign student athletes are, and how preposterous it is for a public school to have over 5 foreign men with the 4.5 scholarship cap.


Dudes 7-8 as of today. It’s better than before but still a losing record. He will be lucky to stay in the top 10 at the end of the year. Schools making more money than it would normally so his job is safe.

ebb&flow
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby ebb&flow » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:30 pm

While I am not privy to the financial situation of the foreign players at my players school, they appear to come from financially strong families. Having traveled a bit via water polo with my kid, there were players in all the countries we visited who were fairly well off. Not all of course, there were more than a few who I would put them in them in the middle to upper class US bracket. With the scholarship money they cut the supplemental fee in half.

oldtimer
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby oldtimer » Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:42 pm

I may not be completely up to date, but last time I spoke with a college admissions person I was told the following:

1) Cal State must accept any California resident that applies and has the grades and lives within their 'district' (not sure what the term is for Universities).
2) UC schools now only receive about 16% of their funding from the state - the rest comes from tuition payments, alumni donations, etc. The regents reportedly held a discussion a few years back to decide if they should to 'full private' or not, since the state was funding so little of their costs. It would have allowed them to get out from under some onerous state guidelines.
3) I do not know what percentage of revenues come from the state for CSU schools, but I suspect it is somewhat greater but not 100%, and likely less than 50%.

So, I suspect that out of state tuition probably keeps California tuitions lower. I don't know this to be true but based on the above it is probable. I also believe that the in-state tuition 'discount' is very important for students because the private schools often will give grants to those they want so the tuition is comparable to a UC or CSU.

Rbpolo0414
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Rbpolo0414 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:56 pm

retiredguy wrote:
Rbpolo0414 wrote:You don’t think these schools would gladly take US kids? Nobody is beating down the door at San Jose State and getting turned away. Unless someone has personal experience of SJSU telling an American kid no, then I don’t want to hear it. Same goes for UOP, LBSU, and UCI. If they don’t take foreigners they will die. If they die, you can kiss NCAA water polo goodbye. Careful what you ask for.


Not to get too involved with this conversation, but I do personally know American players who were told they would be cut at SJSU this past season and they decided not to continue their careers.

Also I know players who can’t get an email back from a lot of the schools you mentioned, who are excellent students and water polo players. Hence, I do believe these schools are choosing not to recruit American players for whatever their reason might be.


College water polo isn’t for everyone. Very few players are good enough. If you want it bad enough and are persistent, and can get into the university on your own, not many coaches are going to send you away. Almost every year you will find someone on UCLA’s roster that does not belong. They always fall off within 2 years. Adam clearly lets these walk ons give it a shot if they are willing to do the work. Every school has players who quit or are cut after a year or two at most.

oldtimer
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby oldtimer » Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:18 pm

I get the sense that some, if not many, are conflating 'admitted' with 'made the team'. Being admitted into the school has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether you play water polo in the vast majority of cases. There are 32,000+ students at SJSU, according to a Google search, of which about 4000 of them are international. I figure 25 students play water polo, and 16 of them are foreign students. A pretty high ratio, for sure - but I seriously doubt that SJSU turned away any students because those students didn't make the water polo roster. If they were told they would be cut, and didn't attend the school - that's not the school's fault, and I think those claiming that the coach has an obligation to take any random US student over a non-US student that met admissions qualifications, has the ability to pay *and* has the ability to play are being a bit unreasonable.

But that's just my opinion.

Saveharts
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Saveharts » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:04 pm

oldtimer wrote:I get the sense that some, if not many, are conflating 'admitted' with 'made the team'. Being admitted into the school has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether you play water polo in the vast majority of cases. There are 32,000+ students at SJSU, according to a Google search, of which about 4000 of them are international. I figure 25 students play water polo, and 16 of them are foreign students. A pretty high ratio, for sure - but I seriously doubt that SJSU turned away any students because those students didn't make the water polo roster. If they were told they would be cut, and didn't attend the school - that's not the school's fault, and I think those claiming that the coach has an obligation to take any random US student over a non-US student that met admissions qualifications, has the ability to pay *and* has the ability to play are being a bit unreasonable.

But that's just my opinion.


Just curious if there are other college sports that recruit foreign players similar to college water polo.

oldtimer
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby oldtimer » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:47 pm

Saveharts wrote:Just curious if there are other college sports that recruit foreign players similar to college water polo.


I wouldn't know because I don't follow any other sports - however, my guess is that any collegiate sport that is big in Europe (or South America, or Asia, or...) will have foreign athletes. Perhaps soccer and hockey. Baseball (from South America, and most recently, Asia). Someone into those sports might be able to provide some info.

BayBoy
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby BayBoy » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:54 pm

FWIW the Cal rugby program is historically the nation's best (as is the Old Blues alumni club).

There are about 60 athletes rostered - with no scholarships last I heard - and the ratio is about 2:1 US to foreign players. The East Bay is overrepresented. Cal's 2021 squad has some brothers of top USA water polo players who chose to lace up the cleats instead of speedos.

Justafan22
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Justafan22 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:20 pm

UptheI15 wrote:I’m assuming, justafan, that your sentiment is not merely nationalist xenophobia, but instead a legitimate critique of having non-Californians (who thus do not pay California taxes) take athletic spots at state universities that you believe belong to Californians. For that reason, I assume you find it similarly profoundly disloyal and wrong for those same institutions to give roster spots to similarly-situated students from, say, Connecticut and New Jersey.

I respectfully take a different view.

It might also bear mention that both out-of-state and foreign students pay substantially higher tuition; at SJSU, over double, and at Cal, over triple. Plus foreign students can’t get subsidized government student loans, while even non-tax paying U.S. citizens can (and routinely do). So wholly apart from the fact that people are people, regardless of their citizenship, and kids are kids, perhaps it’s not totally ethically immoral to let foreign-born students attend college and play sports in the United States.


I have absolutely nothing againts foreign players, from any nation and into any sport, not just waterpolo, however I feel there should be a maximum. Seriously 5 maybe 6 at the very most. Some US players can not even get a reply back from some college coaches. You better believe I know of high school seniors that would have loved to play at San Jose State. Last year, and actually again this year, they either don't get a reply or they are told, "due to Covid and NCAA adding a year of eligibility to current players, we will not be recruiting as many players this year. Sorry our roster is full" Of course it is full, you added 5 Freshmen from Hungary this year also Mr Watson.

Professional soccer clubs in Europe, limit the amount of foreigners they can have on their teams, and this is professional clubs, who you would think, could do what they want. The NCAA needs to put a cap on foreign players in all sports, and also a max age that you should be allowed to play at.

Justafan22
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Justafan22 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:31 pm

Saveharts wrote:
oldtimer wrote:I get the sense that some, if not many, are conflating 'admitted' with 'made the team'. Being admitted into the school has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether you play water polo in the vast majority of cases. There are 32,000+ students at SJSU, according to a Google search, of which about 4000 of them are international. I figure 25 students play water polo, and 16 of them are foreign students. A pretty high ratio, for sure - but I seriously doubt that SJSU turned away any students because those students didn't make the water polo roster. If they were told they would be cut, and didn't attend the school - that's not the school's fault, and I think those claiming that the coach has an obligation to take any random US student over a non-US student that met admissions qualifications, has the ability to pay *and* has the ability to play are being a bit unreasonable.

But that's just my opinion.


Just curious if there are other college sports that recruit foreign players similar to college water polo.


Yes some colleges recruit heavily in Canada for hockey and Asia for golf. Same thing should apply there. A max percentage of players should be allowed to be foreigners. I just feel that there is a certain amount of 'behind the scenes" shenanigans going on, to recruit these players to come this way, and it's not just the use of the 4.5 scholarships. There is no way you are getting 16 players to SJSU or 9 to UOP, from Europe, to play waterpolo at a school they have never heard off, and tell them, sorry you have to pay for your whole cost, we don't have much money to spread around. Those families with money won't send their kids there, they want to send them to Universities that they have heard of, and can brag to their friends with money. We know they are good schools of course, but they don't know that in Europe, and you think they will still spend all that money and send their kid to a college they have never heard of?

ole'gauchos
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby ole'gauchos » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:07 pm

Great point! @Justafan

Rbpolo0414
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Rbpolo0414 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:59 pm

Justafan22 wrote:
UptheI15 wrote:I’m assuming, justafan, that your sentiment is not merely nationalist xenophobia, but instead a legitimate critique of having non-Californians (who thus do not pay California taxes) take athletic spots at state universities that you believe belong to Californians. For that reason, I assume you find it similarly profoundly disloyal and wrong for those same institutions to give roster spots to similarly-situated students from, say, Connecticut and New Jersey.

I respectfully take a different view.

It might also bear mention that both out-of-state and foreign students pay substantially higher tuition; at SJSU, over double, and at Cal, over triple. Plus foreign students can’t get subsidized government student loans, while even non-tax paying U.S. citizens can (and routinely do). So wholly apart from the fact that people are people, regardless of their citizenship, and kids are kids, perhaps it’s not totally ethically immoral to let foreign-born students attend college and play sports in the United States.


I have absolutely nothing againts foreign players, from any nation and into any sport, not just waterpolo, however I feel there should be a maximum. Seriously 5 maybe 6 at the very most. Some US players can not even get a reply back from some college coaches. You better believe I know of high school seniors that would have loved to play at San Jose State. Last year, and actually again this year, they either don't get a reply or they are told, "due to Covid and NCAA adding a year of eligibility to current players, we will not be recruiting as many players this year. Sorry our roster is full" Of course it is full, you added 5 Freshmen from Hungary this year also Mr Watson.

Professional soccer clubs in Europe, limit the amount of foreigners they can have on their teams, and this is professional clubs, who you would think, could do what they want. The NCAA needs to put a cap on foreign players in all sports, and also a max age that you should be allowed to play at.


So of those kids who wanted to go to SJS, where did they sign?

Nohorsepolo
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Nohorsepolo » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:42 pm

Rbpolo0414 wrote:
Justafan22 wrote:
UptheI15 wrote:I’m assuming, justafan, that your sentiment is not merely nationalist xenophobia, but instead a legitimate critique of having non-Californians (who thus do not pay California taxes) take athletic spots at state universities that you believe belong to Californians. For that reason, I assume you find it similarly profoundly disloyal and wrong for those same institutions to give roster spots to similarly-situated students from, say, Connecticut and New Jersey.

I respectfully take a different view.

It might also bear mention that both out-of-state and foreign students pay substantially higher tuition; at SJSU, over double, and at Cal, over triple. Plus foreign students can’t get subsidized government student loans, while even non-tax paying U.S. citizens can (and routinely do). So wholly apart from the fact that people are people, regardless of their citizenship, and kids are kids, perhaps it’s not totally ethically immoral to let foreign-born students attend college and play sports in the United States.


I have absolutely nothing againts foreign players, from any nation and into any sport, not just waterpolo, however I feel there should be a maximum. Seriously 5 maybe 6 at the very most. Some US players can not even get a reply back from some college coaches. You better believe I know of high school seniors that would have loved to play at San Jose State. Last year, and actually again this year, they either don't get a reply or they are told, "due to Covid and NCAA adding a year of eligibility to current players, we will not be recruiting as many players this year. Sorry our roster is full" Of course it is full, you added 5 Freshmen from Hungary this year also Mr Watson.

Professional soccer clubs in Europe, limit the amount of foreigners they can have on their teams, and this is professional clubs, who you would think, could do what they want. The NCAA needs to put a cap on foreign players in all sports, and also a max age that you should be allowed to play at.


So of those kids who wanted to go to SJS, where did they sign?



It’s a slippery slope. Now no one from the US wants to go to SJSU. They all think the coach is biased to euros. It’s hard to come back from at a state school. Private school is a bit easier

ole'gauchos
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby ole'gauchos » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:24 pm

Nohorsepolo wrote:
Rbpolo0414 wrote:
Justafan22 wrote:
UptheI15 wrote:I’m assuming, justafan, that your sentiment is not merely nationalist xenophobia, but instead a legitimate critique of having non-Californians (who thus do not pay California taxes) take athletic spots at state universities that you believe belong to Californians. For that reason, I assume you find it similarly profoundly disloyal and wrong for those same institutions to give roster spots to similarly-situated students from, say, Connecticut and New Jersey.

I respectfully take a different view.

It might also bear mention that both out-of-state and foreign students pay substantially higher tuition; at SJSU, over double, and at Cal, over triple. Plus foreign students can’t get subsidized government student loans, while even non-tax paying U.S. citizens can (and routinely do). So wholly apart from the fact that people are people, regardless of their citizenship, and kids are kids, perhaps it’s not totally ethically immoral to let foreign-born students attend college and play sports in the United States.


I have absolutely nothing againts foreign players, from any nation and into any sport, not just waterpolo, however I feel there should be a maximum. Seriously 5 maybe 6 at the very most. Some US players can not even get a reply back from some college coaches. You better believe I know of high school seniors that would have loved to play at San Jose State. Last year, and actually again this year, they either don't get a reply or they are told, "due to Covid and NCAA adding a year of eligibility to current players, we will not be recruiting as many players this year. Sorry our roster is full" Of course it is full, you added 5 Freshmen from Hungary this year also Mr Watson.

Professional soccer clubs in Europe, limit the amount of foreigners they can have on their teams, and this is professional clubs, who you would think, could do what they want. The NCAA needs to put a cap on foreign players in all sports, and also a max age that you should be allowed to play at.


So of those kids who wanted to go to SJS, where did they sign?
wow, really sad.. hope they can pull it together


It’s a slippery slope. Now no one from the US wants to go to SJSU. They all think the coach is biased to euros. It’s hard to come back from at a state school. Private school is a bit easier

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