MPSF Invitational

Mens College Water Polo
oldtimer
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby oldtimer » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:57 am

There are an awful lot of assumptions in these arguments. I don't see too many arguing based on knowledge, but instead just making up 'questions' with implied answers to justify an opinion.

I personally know of more than a handful of European players going to college here in the US. Some of them come from money, and some do not. Those that do not either have a sponsor here in the US (family, family friend, etc.) or in at least one case spent a year at home working and saving enough to pay for tuition.

From my experience sponsoring a Hungarian player here, the education system in Europe is much, much different than in the US. When you go to school, you either are on the 'academic track' or the 'athletic track'. They don't combine academics and athletics like we do here. If you are on the athletic track, your education is basic - just enough to be able to get what would be a minimum wage job here. The presumption is that you will focus on athletics and get a contract to play for a club. Clubs there have different levels, similar to professional leagues here where there are minor league clubs that some athletes never move up from, and who get paid just enough to live and play the game until they can't anymore. Then they try to become a coach, or maybe become a mechanic or bus driver or whatever afterward.

Coming to the US and getting an education from *ANY* college is going to be attractive for many/most Eastern European athletes unless they do come from a wealthy family - and possibly even for them. FWIW, coming to the US is a dream opportunity, based on what I've been told, regardless of what school they attend. If they know they aren't good enough to get a decent contract in Europe, a degree from any US college will look like a much better option. So, as an example, go to West Valley College where there might be some generous sponsors willing to let a European athlete live very cheaply in a family's home (this is what more than a few of the Europeans I know have done), and pay about $10K/year for two years of college while playing, then go to SJS - with the same living arrangement - and pay about $20K/year for two years while playing.

Rational
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Rational » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:12 pm

oldtimer wrote:So, as an example, go to West Valley College where there might be some generous sponsors willing to let a European athlete live very cheaply in a family's home (this is what more than a few of the Europeans I know have done)


This is a violation of NCAA rules... boosters subsidizing / paying athletes on the side

5150wpdad
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby 5150wpdad » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:39 pm

Rational wrote:
oldtimer wrote:So, as an example, go to West Valley College where there might be some generous sponsors willing to let a European athlete live very cheaply in a family's home (this is what more than a few of the Europeans I know have done)


This is a violation of NCAA rules... boosters subsidizing / paying athletes on the side


It's only a violation if you get caught.

Seems similar to what UCSB was doing with housing. However, SJSU/West Valley may be using a team host/foreign exchange type system instead of landlord direct payments.

https://dailynexus.com/2019-11-07/ucsb- ... announces/

oldtimer
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby oldtimer » Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:06 pm

Rational wrote:This is a violation of NCAA rules... boosters subsidizing / paying athletes on the side


I know a lot of foreign athletes in Junior College who are staying with a US family - the school knows it, the coach knows it and I've not heard anyone claim that this is any kind of violation. As far as I know, there is no rule against a family friend or family member providing housing, tuition assistance, etc. so once a player has been living with someone for two years before attending a 4-year college, I'd like to hear the argument on how this is a violation of the rules.

Justafan22
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Justafan22 » Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:23 pm

oldtimer wrote:
Rational wrote:This is a violation of NCAA rules... boosters subsidizing / paying athletes on the side


I know a lot of foreign athletes in Junior College who are staying with a US family - the school knows it, the coach knows it and I've not heard anyone claim that this is any kind of violation. As far as I know, there is no rule against a family friend or family member providing housing, tuition assistance, etc. so once a player has been living with someone for two years before attending a 4-year college, I'd like to hear the argument on how this is a violation of the rules.


Yup it's always a fine line and sometimes not every NCAA rule makes sense 100% of the time. If some kid, from another country or another state, can find a family to house them and feed them, near the school, and save the kid's family that expense. I think that should be OK as long as you report all this arrangement up front, so the college or NCAA can review and see how it came about, in case they feel the coaching staff are the ones that arranged all this, and maybe other incentives.

I also don't think it should be a problem, if for example I have a nephew that is recruited to play college somewhere, and I help him pay his tuition, otherwise he would not be able to go to that college. If it's reported up front, and he is my actual nephew. and I can explain that I have the funds and would like to help him, then is that a NCAA violation?

Now if you have random people housing you and paying for your tuition and giving you jobs at higher pay than the going rate, such as UCSB was doing, well yeah that is a problem

bennykovacs
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby bennykovacs » Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:34 pm

BayBoy wrote:FWIW the Cal rugby program is historically the nation's best (as is the Old Blues alumni club).

There are about 60 athletes rostered - with no scholarships last I heard - and the ratio is about 2:1 US to foreign players. The East Bay is overrepresented. Cal's 2021 squad has some brothers of top USA water polo players who chose to lace up the cleats instead of speedos.

First of all, the Old Blues Rugby club was disbanded years ago. The roster is not overweighted with East Bay kids. The kids are from all over the country: Connecticut, Texas, Minnesota, New York and Colorado. They have a number of Aussies and kids from Hong Kong, but I would say the program is no longer dominant. It’s a club sportthat tries to act like a varsity sport. BYU has deemphasized it and St Mary’s has been beating them.

5150wpdad
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby 5150wpdad » Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:42 pm

oldtimer wrote:
Rational wrote:This is a violation of NCAA rules... boosters subsidizing / paying athletes on the side


I know a lot of foreign athletes in Junior College who are staying with a US family - the school knows it, the coach knows it and I've not heard anyone claim that this is any kind of violation. As far as I know, there is no rule against a family friend or family member providing housing, tuition assistance, etc. so once a player has been living with someone for two years before attending a 4-year college, I'd like to hear the argument on how this is a violation of the rules.


CCCAA Constitution....See bylaw 2.14 C...

https://www.cccaasports.org/working/pdf ... ylaw_2.pdf
https://www.cccaasports.org/services/constitution

2.14 SUBSIDIZING, INDUCEMENTS, AND SPECIAL PRIVILEGES
2.14.1 Receipt by a prospect/student-athlete of a subsidy, inducement, or special
privilege not authorized by the Constitution and Bylaws would be a violation of
Bylaw 2. Minimum penalties shall be assessed as described in Article 7.4.11.
2.14.2 Subsidizing is defined as providing any manner of service or financial assistance to prospects or student-athletes that is not available to all other students. Subsidization in any manner by the college or individual(s) or groups acting in the interest of the college is not permitted. Examples of service or financial assistance, which would be prohibited include, but are not limited to the following:
A. The promise of or the providing of actual payment in dollars or products for athletic participation to a prospect/student-athlete.
B. The paying for, the providing of, the pre-payment with expectations of re-imbursement, the providing at less than actual cost or the waiving of a prospect’s/student-athlete’s tuition, fees, housing, meals, books, supplies, transportation,
student body cards, laundry service, clothing, groceries, telephone calls, etc.
C. The obtaining, securing, or soliciting of housing for a prospect/student-athlete that is not available to all students at the community college.
D. The promise of or the payment to a prospect/student-athlete for a job that
does not exist and/or at a higher rate than the actual value of the job.
E. The providing to a prospect/student-athlete for free or reduced costs the use of credit cards, debit cards, phone cards, etc.
F. The promise of or the providing to a prospect/student-athlete any award,
loan, grant, or scholarship not available to all eligible students at the community
college. (See Bylaw 2.14.3)
G. The payment to or providing any form of assistance to a prospect/student-athlete for serving as a coach of a team while competing on that same team during a season of sport.

Rational
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Rational » Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:50 pm

If I want to pay the $72k it costs to attend UOP for my cousin/nephew/family member, I think that's fine; I would even extend that to family friend as our relationship extends beyond water polo.

However, if I decide to pay $72k directly to the school for a Serbian kid who I only met for 10 minutes at a UOP water polo fundraiser .... well, I think you can see how that looks different.

***Note - just using UOP as an example, not an insinuation of wrongdoing***

Cal Polo Enthusiast
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Cal Polo Enthusiast » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:24 pm

5150wpdad wrote:
oldtimer wrote:
Rational wrote:This is a violation of NCAA rules... boosters subsidizing / paying athletes on the side


I know a lot of foreign athletes in Junior College who are staying with a US family - the school knows it, the coach knows it and I've not heard anyone claim that this is any kind of violation. As far as I know, there is no rule against a family friend or family member providing housing, tuition assistance, etc. so once a player has been living with someone for two years before attending a 4-year college, I'd like to hear the argument on how this is a violation of the rules.


CCCAA Constitution....See bylaw 2.14 C...

https://www.cccaasports.org/working/pdf ... ylaw_2.pdf
https://www.cccaasports.org/services/constitution

2.14 SUBSIDIZING, INDUCEMENTS, AND SPECIAL PRIVILEGES
2.14.1 Receipt by a prospect/student-athlete of a subsidy, inducement, or special
privilege not authorized by the Constitution and Bylaws would be a violation of
Bylaw 2. Minimum penalties shall be assessed as described in Article 7.4.11.
2.14.2 Subsidizing is defined as providing any manner of service or financial assistance to prospects or student-athletes that is not available to all other students. Subsidization in any manner by the college or individual(s) or groups acting in the interest of the college is not permitted. Examples of service or financial assistance, which would be prohibited include, but are not limited to the following:
A. The promise of or the providing of actual payment in dollars or products for athletic participation to a prospect/student-athlete.
B. The paying for, the providing of, the pre-payment with expectations of re-imbursement, the providing at less than actual cost or the waiving of a prospect’s/student-athlete’s tuition, fees, housing, meals, books, supplies, transportation,
student body cards, laundry service, clothing, groceries, telephone calls, etc.
C. The obtaining, securing, or soliciting of housing for a prospect/student-athlete that is not available to all students at the community college.
D. The promise of or the payment to a prospect/student-athlete for a job that
does not exist and/or at a higher rate than the actual value of the job.
E. The providing to a prospect/student-athlete for free or reduced costs the use of credit cards, debit cards, phone cards, etc.
F. The promise of or the providing to a prospect/student-athlete any award,
loan, grant, or scholarship not available to all eligible students at the community
college. (See Bylaw 2.14.3)
G. The payment to or providing any form of assistance to a prospect/student-athlete for serving as a coach of a team while competing on that same team during a season of sport.


But if a player stays with a private family how do you prove that it is anything other than staying with friends?

oldtimer
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby oldtimer » Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:56 pm

5150wpdad wrote:
oldtimer wrote:
Rational wrote:This is a violation of NCAA rules... boosters subsidizing / paying athletes on the side


I know a lot of foreign athletes in Junior College who are staying with a US family - the school knows it, the coach knows it and I've not heard anyone claim that this is any kind of violation. As far as I know, there is no rule against a family friend or family member providing housing, tuition assistance, etc. so once a player has been living with someone for two years before attending a 4-year college, I'd like to hear the argument on how this is a violation of the rules.


CCCAA Constitution....See bylaw 2.14 C...

...<b>Subsidization in any manner by the college or individual(s) or groups acting in the interest of the college is not permitted</b>


In my particular case, I offered to host (lodging) a Hungarian player for a team playing in Junior Olympics. He became friends with my son of the same age, who has since visited Hungary and stayed with that family. I sponsored him to attend college here, and contacted the local community college to help with his F1 visa and talked to the coach about him trying out (my son did not attend that community college). That would not be a violation of the Constitution.

He played with several other athletes who were staying with families of students. He also knows several former club teammates who played here in college. I have no idea how those families came into contact with those players, but the Community College he attended has an International Students department that assists foreign students to get their visas and attend school. He now attends a CSU (that does not have a water polo team), and they have given him much assistance with ensuring his visa remains valid. My assumption is that the compliance officer of a university checks out foreign students to ensure they are eligible to play. Are there 'shady' compliance officers? Probably, but it seems to me that taking a risk of getting sanctions slapped onto the school for a sport like water polo would be pretty dumb. But that's just me, perhaps.

The point is that the key phrase is 'acting in the interest of the college' rather than acting in the interest of the athlete.

I post this reply to reiterate my statement that there are a lot of assumptions in the arguments being given here. Sure, it is unethical and a violation of the rules to do something that is unethical and a violation of the rules. But has any college, including SJS, violated the rules? There is at this point no actual evidence (even if it is a possibility), but that doesn't stop people from making statements that it is wrong or somebody has somehow prevented a US athlete from attending/playing.

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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby ephpolo » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:54 pm

I'd add that there are schools for whom outreach to new immigrants and/or bringing foreign students to the US are part of their mission. Not sure about the California scene, but here in the east St. Francis is definitely in that category. All but a few of their players are from overseas--and it's been that way as long as I can remember.

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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby 2plyBathingSuit » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:30 am

ephpolo wrote:I'd add that there are schools for whom outreach to new immigrants and/or bringing foreign students to the US are part of their mission. Not sure about the California scene, but here in the east St. Francis is definitely in that category. All but a few of their players are from overseas--and it's been that way as long as I can remember.


Yea, I remember St. Francis and their horrible shallow-end pool, vividly. 5 of them literally wept after we beat them in their own pool. ;-)

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