MPSF Invitational

Mens College Water Polo
Justafan22
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Justafan22 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:23 pm

Presidio wrote:I took a look at rosters and it looks like Cal and SJS are the most egregious with respect to foreigners on their rosters.

UCSD- 2
UCI - 3
UCD - 3
UCLA - 3
UCSB- 3
LBS - 7
Cal - 9
SJS - 16


How the heck do you talk 16 foreign players into coming to SJS, pay full 'out of state tuition" just to come and play WP. You know if you are Berkeley or UCLA orUSC, you have a name that people have heard of in Europe, and that helps you recruit. You can get a good education at any of the schools named above, but nobody outside of the US has ever heard of San Jose State, so how do you get 16 players to come and study here, which of course is supposed to be the main reason you go to colloge, without giving them extra financial incentives. Being that it's a state school, it's probably on record how much every student pays right? I'm probably being a little naive here :sad:

SwimCoach
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby SwimCoach » Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:53 pm

Interesting to note that Stanford has 0 foreigners and USC has 7.

oldtimer
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby oldtimer » Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:39 pm

Justafan22 wrote:How the heck do you talk 16 foreign players into coming to SJS, pay full 'out of state tuition" just to come and play WP. You know if you are Berkeley or UCLA orUSC, you have a name that people have heard of in Europe, and that helps you recruit. You can get a good education at any of the schools named above, but nobody outside of the US has ever heard of San Jose State, so how do you get 16 players to come and study here, which of course is supposed to be the main reason you go to colloge, without giving them extra financial incentives. Being that it's a state school, it's probably on record how much every student pays right? I'm probably being a little naive here :sad:


The SJS coach formerly coached at West Valley Community College, where he was able to attract a fair number of foreign athletes. I suspect that this pipeline still exists for his program. From what I've seen, Community College is an easier (if not cheaper) pathway into the US for European players who were in the 'pro pipeline' there but weren't good enough to get a decent paid spot in their professional teams.

arbolado
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby arbolado » Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:54 pm

oldtimer wrote:
Justafan22 wrote:How the heck do you talk 16 foreign players into coming to SJS, pay full 'out of state tuition" just to come and play WP. You know if you are Berkeley or UCLA orUSC, you have a name that people have heard of in Europe, and that helps you recruit. You can get a good education at any of the schools named above, but nobody outside of the US has ever heard of San Jose State, so how do you get 16 players to come and study here, which of course is supposed to be the main reason you go to colloge, without giving them extra financial incentives. Being that it's a state school, it's probably on record how much every student pays right? I'm probably being a little naive here :sad:


The SJS coach formerly coached at West Valley Community College, where he was able to attract a fair number of foreign athletes. I suspect that this pipeline still exists for his program. From what I've seen, Community College is an easier (if not cheaper) pathway into the US for European players who were in the 'pro pipeline' there but weren't good enough to get a decent paid spot in their professional teams.
Last edited by arbolado on Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fivesixgoalie
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby fivesixgoalie » Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:07 pm

arbolado wrote:
oldtimer wrote:
Justafan22 wrote:How the heck do you talk 16 foreign players into coming to SJS, pay full 'out of state tuition" just to come and play WP. You know if you are Berkeley or UCLA orUSC, you have a name that people have heard of in Europe, and that helps you recruit. You can get a good education at any of the schools named above, but nobody outside of the US has ever heard of San Jose State, so how do you get 16 players to come and study here, which of course is supposed to be the main reason you go to colloge, without giving them extra financial incentives. Being that it's a state school, it's probably on record how much every student pays right? I'm probably being a little naive here :sad:


The SJS coach formerly coached at West Valley Community College, where he was able to attract a fair number of foreign athletes. I suspect that this pipeline still exists for his program. From what I've seen, Community College is an easier (if not cheaper) pathway into the US for European players who were in the 'pro pipeline' there but weren't good enough to get a decent paid spot in their professional teams.


Maybe he's just padding his state pension and he can just be on cruise control without having to do any real recruiting to build a program.



Please don't speak of Bruce that way.

arbolado
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby arbolado » Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:24 pm

I removed my snarky comment, but I don’t see the effort being put forth in recruiting. 16 foreign players and 7 US players is kinda lame. It is the Bay Area and he should be able to do better than that.

wpviewer
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby wpviewer » Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:25 pm

Presidio wrote:I took a look at rosters and it looks like Cal and SJS are the most egregious with respect to foreigners on their rosters.

Stanford - 0
UCSD- 2
UCI - 3
UCD - 3
UCLA - 3
UCSB- 3
LBS - 7
USC - 7
Cal - 9
SJS - 16


More #s:

PRINCETON - 6 (2 have combined for 50 of the 196 goals to date)
HARVARD - 1
BROWN - 2
PEPPERDINE - 2
UOP - 8 (?)

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2plyBathingSuit
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby 2plyBathingSuit » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:31 pm

wpviewer wrote:
Presidio wrote:I took a look at rosters and it looks like Cal and SJS are the most egregious with respect to foreigners on their rosters.

Stanford - 0
UCSD- 2
UCI - 3
UCD - 3
UCLA - 3
UCSB- 3
LBS - 7
USC - 7
Cal - 9
SJS - 16


More #s:

PRINCETON - 6 (2 have combined for 50 of the 196 goals to date)
HARVARD - 1
BROWN - 2
PEPPERDINE - 2
UOP - 8 (?)


Correction. Princeton only has 4 legit foreigners. One of them with a Serbian sounding name has been in this country (Pennsylvania) since he was 10 years old, therefore, I really wouldn't count him in your tally. He also has a sister who attends Princeton as well. Another gentleman from England is a walk-on simply because he wanted to be with his friends. Water polo at Princeton is an "open-sport". Anyone can jump on board and join the team if you're willing to put in the work and do what the coach tells you to do. Times are a changing folks...better buckle up and enjoy the ride.

Justafan22
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Justafan22 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:12 am

arbolado wrote:I removed my snarky comment, but I don’t see the effort being put forth in recruiting. 16 foreign players and 7 US players is kinda lame. It is the Bay Area and he should be able to do better than that.


It is not only lame, it is wrong. No loyalty whatsoever. He has plenty of kids to pick from in California alone. Every resident of California, pays into the Cal State education system and I'm sure the goal when this subsidy was stablished, was to give California kids help in getting a good education and continue to play a sport they learned to love and work hard at, in High School. And now you go and give 2/3 of roster spots to kids of other countries. Shame on you and your AD

Justafan22
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Justafan22 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:29 am

Justafan22 wrote:
arbolado wrote:I removed my snarky comment, but I don’t see the effort being put forth in recruiting. 16 foreign players and 7 US players is kinda lame. It is the Bay Area and he should be able to do better than that.


It is not only lame, it is wrong. No loyalty whatsoever. He has plenty of kids to pick from in California alone. Every resident of California, pays into the Cal State education system and I'm sure the goal when this subsidy was stablished, was to give California kids help in getting a good education and continue to play a sport they learned to love and work hard at, in High School. And now you go and give 2/3 of roster spots to kids of other countries. Shame on you and your AD



Coach Bruce Watson, you were once a young American kid playing at San Jose State and look at the opportunities that it brought you. So do you really need 7 kids from Hungary, including most of your freshman recruits? Win at all cost I guess right?

UptheI15
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby UptheI15 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:36 am

I’m assuming, justafan, that your sentiment is not merely nationalist xenophobia, but instead a legitimate critique of having non-Californians (who thus do not pay California taxes) take athletic spots at state universities that you believe belong to Californians. For that reason, I assume you find it similarly profoundly disloyal and wrong for those same institutions to give roster spots to similarly-situated students from, say, Connecticut and New Jersey.

I respectfully take a different view.

It might also bear mention that both out-of-state and foreign students pay substantially higher tuition; at SJSU, over double, and at Cal, over triple. Plus foreign students can’t get subsidized government student loans, while even non-tax paying U.S. citizens can (and routinely do). So wholly apart from the fact that people are people, regardless of their citizenship, and kids are kids, perhaps it’s not totally ethically immoral to let foreign-born students attend college and play sports in the United States.

Presidio
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Presidio » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:56 am

This article shows the acceptance rates at UC schools since 1997. I saw on CNN in late 80’s the acceptance rate at UCLA was closer to 50%.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/slideshow/U ... 179965.php

Personally I think UC and CS schools should be focusing on California kids first. The whole argument about out of state kids paying more is BS to me. I pay taxes in this state not in Pennsylvania or New York. By defunding the college system we have created a need for out of state and foreign students. Since 1980 when adjusted for inflation college costs have increased over 1300%.

https://calbudgetcenter.org/blog/the-co ... n-and-now/

UptheI15 you can argue all you want for diversity and it’s benefits, and I can accept having 2-4 foreign players on a roster, but once you get over 5 you are pretty much saying I can’t win with or develop local talent. And no matter how you cut it 16 is ridiculous.

Judyjudyjudy7
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Judyjudyjudy7 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:21 am

The number of foreign players is one part (I agree they should be limited to 3 or 4) but not the biggest driver, our experience with them is that they are really good people and students on top of their skills in the water. How they are paid for is where I have an issue. As mentioned above it is very expensive for out of state / country. If each of these young men at all the schools are paying full out of state tuition and got the grades/test scores to get in then so be it. That is highly unlikely / impossible given the average annual incomes of the countries represented. I spoke to the assistant AD at my sons school about how the 4.5 scholarships funding works. The bottom line is that you cannot fund scholarships in excess of the 4.5 via friends of the program/alumni, foreign kids do not qualify for loans, needs based or otherwise, any grants must be broadly offer to the entire school and cannot be so narrowly tailored to only fit an ex-US water polo player. This should naturally reduce the number of ex-US kids if the rules are followed. Take Cal for example, even if you assume that 100% of the scholarship money goes to the non-US kids that would assume that the families of the 9 kids can fund 50% of the cost which in most cases is above the average annual income from those countries. That also means that not one other player (our kids) on the team gets any scholarship money. This makes no sense, someone above said "follow the money". I submit that if the rules were followed by everyone, not just some there would be much more parity in the pool.

Where is the NCAA on this? Isn't that their mandate, to promote fairness? Of course I am joking here they are useless.

Rbpolo0414
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby Rbpolo0414 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:43 am

You don’t think these schools would gladly take US kids? Nobody is beating down the door at San Jose State and getting turned away. Unless someone has personal experience of SJSU telling an American kid no, then I don’t want to hear it. Same goes for UOP, LBSU, and UCI. If they don’t take foreigners they will die. If they die, you can kiss NCAA water polo goodbye. Careful what you ask for.

retiredguy
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Re: MPSF Invitational

Postby retiredguy » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:03 am

Rbpolo0414 wrote:You don’t think these schools would gladly take US kids? Nobody is beating down the door at San Jose State and getting turned away. Unless someone has personal experience of SJSU telling an American kid no, then I don’t want to hear it. Same goes for UOP, LBSU, and UCI. If they don’t take foreigners they will die. If they die, you can kiss NCAA water polo goodbye. Careful what you ask for.


Not to get too involved with this conversation, but I do personally know American players who were told they would be cut at SJSU this past season and they decided not to continue their careers.

Also I know players who can’t get an email back from a lot of the schools you mentioned, who are excellent students and water polo players. Hence, I do believe these schools are choosing not to recruit American players for whatever their reason might be.

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