You Make The Call #28

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oldtimer
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You Make The Call #28

Postby oldtimer » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:29 pm

Three questions on this one:

1) Do you call an exclusion, or 'let them play' because the attacker has the advantage?
2) Which referee is responsible for watching what's happening at the ball - the far side or near side?
3) OK, I should keep my comments to myself... but, do you agree with the explanation given?

https://vimeo.com/175644494

PoloChk
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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby PoloChk » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:33 am

Breaking it down play-by-play, in my opinion:

1. Shot is clean, hits the wood.
2. Center forward takes possession, ball is in hand, so no foul call made - correct, center forward throws ball away.
3. Four players swim for the ball (two light, two dark), dark player reaches ball first, all players are scrappy, but no player is distinctly fouling another.
4. Light player has hands down, while there is arguably a hold, I could also make the case that the dark player with possession has the ball is simulating for the foul... either way, given the dark player has open water, I would have played advantage (in answer to question 1)
5. Dark player makes clean pass.
6. Dark player sits up to shoot, tackled from behind while holding the ball by light player
7. Dark player re-gathers ball from what I can see, but not holding as the player with no cap comes in, possession is lost.

At that point either in my opinion an ordinary or exclusion.... leaning toward ordinary from the angle of the camera, should have been whistled.

In answer to your second question, technically the referees should be working together, as the four players swimming towards the ball occurs, the near side referee should be position where they could see what was going on... given the spread of players across the pool, position of the referee is critical... the near side referee should have been able to see what was happening at the point of where the ball landed, but have periphery view of the players in back court.

As the transition happened, the far side referee would have then taken more responsibility for where the ball is, and the near side for the back court.

In answer to your third question, the explanation given in my opinion was weak. Technically, yes there are 12 players in the pool, and no a referee can not see all of them at once. However, with good positioning (i.e. opening your angles up to increase your periphery vision) and a good understanding of the feel for the game (i.e. knowing where the 'trouble' spots may be), a referee can make educated decisions on where their specific focus should be at a particular time. In the case here, the critical action was on the near side with four players going for the ball... the referee should have been paying greater attention to that play at that moment.

ephpolo
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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby ephpolo » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:51 am

I must be missing something--what is "the explanation given"?

Other than that, I generally agree with PoloChk, with one point worthy of a little discussion.

1. Shot is clean, hits the wood.
2. Center forward takes possession, ball is in hand, so no foul call made - correct, center forward throws ball away.
3. Four players swim for the ball (two light, two dark), dark player reaches ball first, all players are scrappy, but no player is distinctly fouling another.
4. Light player has hands down, while there is arguably a hold, I could also make the case that the dark player with possession has the ball is simulating for the foul... either way, given the dark player has open water, I would have played advantage (in answer to question 1)
Another possibility here is the white player (who may or may not be holding depending on whether you think the dark player with the ball is faking) may also be held by the second dark player. Either way, I don't think I call anything here unless I BOTH observe that the white player was held AND believe his team would do better with a 6-5 than the ongoing transitional advantage. From what I see in the video, I don't.

oldtimer
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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby oldtimer » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:58 am

I am very curious about the 'faking' statements.

1) 1st attacker has a clear advantage, and therefore no reason to fake. Arms are rotating forward, yet he moves backward and under. Not an egregious 'hold', but takes the 'steam' out of the counter. There is a defender that has drifted back, but another attacker is coming down undefended in the middle of the pool.

2) 2nd attacker has his arms going like a windmill, but is not moving. This allows the two defenders to stay with him so the one defender that has drifted back does not end up with a 3-on-1.

I tell my players to not kick off when being held - but continue swimming. This is because officials have called a contra when an attacker kicks off to get out of a hold. I've told them that if they keep their arms moving, it will be obvious they are being held. Yet, here it seems that there is *no penalty* for holding a swimming attacker - because the official will assume he might be faking! Therefore, defense gains an advantage by breaking the rules.

(yes, posted up attacker should have moved away to allow the middle attacker to have a 2-on-1 with the attacker holding the ball)

The 'explanation' I was referring to was the "I can't see everyone". Telling me to shut up was fine (I withheld comment for the rest of the game), but saying he had 'other people' to pay attention to, when the ball was on his side seemed (as polochik says) a bit weak.

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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby ephpolo » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:32 pm

Guess I have to turn on the audio when I watch these . . . .

oldtimer wrote:I am very curious about the 'faking' statements.

1) 1st attacker has a clear advantage, and therefore no reason to fake. Arms are rotating forward, yet he moves backward and under. Not an egregious 'hold', but takes the 'steam' out of the counter. There is a defender that has drifted back, but another attacker is coming down undefended in the middle of the pool.

2) 2nd attacker has his arms going like a windmill, but is not moving. This allows the two defenders to stay with him so the one defender that has drifted back does not end up with a 3-on-1.

I tell my players to not kick off when being held - but continue swimming. This is because officials have called a contra when an attacker kicks off to get out of a hold. I've told them that if they keep their arms moving, it will be obvious they are being held. Yet, here it seems that there is *no penalty* for holding a swimming attacker - because the official will assume he might be faking! Therefore, defense gains an advantage by breaking the rules.

(yes, posted up attacker should have moved away to allow the middle attacker to have a 2-on-1 with the attacker holding the ball)

The 'explanation' I was referring to was the "I can't see everyone". Telling me to shut up was fine (I withheld comment for the rest of the game), but saying he had 'other people' to pay attention to, when the ball was on his side seemed (as polochik says) a bit weak.


It may be just me, but as an observer I absolutely loathe the over-dramatic attempt to demonstrate that a player is being fouled. It stinks of the soccer flop. (Worst of all is the "press shoulder into defender, sink self, drop ball" attempt to draw an ordinary foul on the perimiter.) This prejudice may carry over to games I officiate, where I am probably more likely to award a foul to the player who tries to swim through the hold than the one who thows up her arms and then looks at me for the foul. I don't know if that's right, but it is what's going on in my brain. Your advice to your players would help them with me on the deck.

By the way, I'm not buying your "no reason to fake because the player has advantage" argument. Players make bad decisions all the time, including bad decisions about faking fouls. I'm not saying your player did fake--just that from what I saw it wasn't clear whether this was a hold, a fake, or both. Even if it was clearly a hold, I'm not sure I'd call it because he may be better off swimming toward the goal with no defender and the ball than holding a free throw with a 20 second 6-5 from the backcourt. I'd like to reward his effort to swim through by not taking away his chance a counter goal.

Your exchange with the official demonstrates that officials are humans and prone to both imperfection and truth telling. No referee sees everything. Give him/her props for honesty.

ephpolo
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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby ephpolo » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:44 pm

Just listened to the audio. I think you're lucky you only got a warning from the referee. I also think it was a mistake for him to address you while the play was still going on.

I'm pretty tolerant of respectful questions and requests for clarification after play has stopped, and of coaches making faces and verbally expressing disappointment with my calls, but "Pay attention to what's going on here" is veering into Yellow/Red Card territory, especially in an age group game.

It may be I have a short fuse, but I don't throw many cards. That statement would have pushed my buttons hard.

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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby jlweath » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:26 pm

To answer your questions from my perspective:

1 - I would of called 2 exclusions on the white team. The 1st after the four players collided and the dark hat player was actually pulled back ( that is not facking). The 2nd is when the ball subsequently is passed to the open (middle player), who finally gets hacked from behind.

2 - I would of thought the ref with his right shoulder to the offensive team (far side ref) had jurisdiction to make the call.

3 - Based upon what I heard, this ref is to thin skinned, if he is going to get that upset at that statement. He should wear ear plugs.

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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby PoloChk » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:08 pm

ehpolo: I agree with you on your response to my point four... there was discretion to be made, and I think the no foul call was the right one, given that the 'advantage' was to allow the dark player to move up the pool, rather than the 6-5.

I also agree on that over-dramatized attempt by players to show they are being fouled, and when they look at the referee to almost ask where the foul call is, as a referee it is less likely that I will whistle a foul.

If you look at the best players - at any level - they don't play for the whistle, they play until the whistle. Meaning, if they draw the exclusion then they draw it, if they don't they get on with the job, it is a sign of a highly skilled player... these players also help referees do their job, because it enables the referee to have more confidence in their decisions - allow advantage to play/call the quick ordinary or exclusion etc.

Oldtimer: I think it is great that you teach your players to continue swimming, I honestly wish more coaches would take that approach... however, I would encourage you to add on to your coaching, that you won't always get an foul called for you... that you don't look to 'beg' the foul from the referee, keep your head down and move... play until the whistle, not for it.

This is advice I have talked to players in my club about... the good ones get it... the unskilled players will never get it!

oldtimer
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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby oldtimer » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:35 pm

Polochik - That's exactly what I teach them. However, consider a situation where a head goes underwater. How does the player know whether a foul has been called except to look at the ref for a hand signal. Isn't that the point of a hand signal?

Doru Roll
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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby Doru Roll » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:25 pm

I guess I must have been looking at a different video that the rest of the posters, because in the clip that I watched there were two offensive fouls and two exclusions foul which weren't whistled where the offender didn't have advantage and was in fact rewarded by the no-call. This kind of situation invariably leads to escalation. As to the referee: he needs to get off his high horse because all four fouls were his to call.

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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby tomj » Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:56 pm

Oldtimer ...

I assume that it was you telling the ref to pay attention. Out of curiosity, why would you think that a whistle is necessary at that point? There was certainly a hold/pull, but it was irrelevant - the attacker was still a body length ahead and lost no significant advantage. Not calling anything is reasonable. In fact, calling the exclusion there kills the counter, because the ball comes back 5 yards. They were right and you were wrong.

1) Do you call an exclusion, or 'let them play' because the attacker has the advantage?


I hold my whistle on the action after the turnover, perhaps with a wave telling them to play on, and call the exclusion on the sink from behind near the end of the video.

2) Which referee is responsible for watching what's happening at the ball - the far side or near side?


The doctrine of collaboration says that both refs are responsible for the whole pool. Each ref is to call what they see, with the understanding that each ref makes the calls they are best positioned to call. They get thing correct or not correct as a team.

3) OK, I should keep my comments to myself... but, do you agree with the explanation given?


My only comment is that he shouldn't be engaging you, particularly during play.

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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby oldtimer » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:12 am

OK - I plead guilty to speaking out of frustration. What you don't see is that the referee on the near side is looking back at the goal, where nothing is going on. I am watching two dark players apparently being held by white players, so I was basically trying to draw attention to it in case it gets out of hand. For the record, this is the same referee (different tournament) as in You Make The Call #27, so I guess I let that affect me.

Doru Roll
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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby Doru Roll » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:51 am

I have been watching a different clip than everyone else...

1. Contra foul at 00:01 on the white center for hooking the defender's head just before the shot is taken. Even though the shooter at 6m had advantage, the foul occurred ahead of the ball and therefore the center has no advantage.

The clip starts too late, but I suspect that there could have been an exclusion on the center defender prior to the shot for a two-handed sink. Even though the center didn't have advantage, the foul was preventing him from working on gaining position. If that is so, then the foul above should not be called.

2. Ball under on the white center at 00:03. The referee didn't whistle it and the center threw the ball into empty water which caused the scrum that followed.

3. Exclusion foul on dark at 00:07 for contact with the face and sinking. Even though it looks like a continuation of the action, the dark player made contact three times and stopped to foul. There was also elbow contact to the face of the second white player, but that was an accidental follow-thru.

4. Exclusion foul at 00:08 on white for holding. This foul was in retaliation for #3, so it's actually a good thing that the ref didn't call it.

The foul that absolutely needed to be called is #3 because that kind of situation always leads to escalation.

And oldtimer, please don't talk to him like that, you big bully... :lol:

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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby contrafoul » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:38 am

Great no call... "Watch what is going on here" okay looks like water polo to me

oldtimer
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Re: You Make The Call #28

Postby oldtimer » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:09 am

I know I am in the minority here, but the rules very clearly state that it is a foul to hold, sink, pull, kick or otherwise prevent a player from playing who is not holding the ball. All I hear is that 'advantage' requires referees to completely ignore those rules (and many others).

In basketball, for example, a defensive player might jump in front of a driving offensive player - who knocks down the defender. If the defender did not have his feet completely planted, he gets a foul called. In water polo, we ignore everything. This, in my opinion, is why we have escalation and fights in our game and constantly struggle with the reputation of it being a violent sport... despite the fact that the number of injuries is very low. Perception is everything.

And the excuse that you "can't take away advantage" is utter nonsense, IMO. Referees do it *all the time*. I watched numerous times at JOs where referees would call exclusions and ordinaries in center, where the offensive player scored immediately after the foul was called but it didn't count. I could cite other examples as well. Sorry, I see it as an excuse why referees are 'never wrong'.

"Looks like water polo". No, it looks like a scrum that the referee was not watching. As Doru states (and I missed), there was an elbow to a face. Oh, yeah - "That's just water polo". Apologies for my rant. :-)

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