Faking...

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oldtimer
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Faking...

Postby oldtimer » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:42 pm

This is a serious question.

What do you use to decide whether a player is faking or not? How do you verify whether your assumption is correct? What basis do you have in concluding that 'many players fake' if you have no actual evidence that any given player is faking?

Doru Roll
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Re: Faking...

Postby Doru Roll » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:07 pm

Everything action results in a corresponding reaction. If the reaction far exceeds the action which preceded it, the player is faking in which case a verbal warning is in order. If (s)he continues, a yellow card usually prompts the coach to take the player in question out of the pool for a little chat.

oldtimer
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Re: Faking...

Postby oldtimer » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:35 pm

I realize that much of officiating is making assumptions. Unless you actually see a hand/arm out of the water, or a head butt (for example) you have to base your decision upon what kind of movements seem to be occurring, what sounds are made and what facial expressions are being made. In many, if not most, of those situations someone could be 'faking'. We all know this - but some who have posted seem to be implying they are good at determining fakers. So my question is really: how do you know this? How have you verified, after the fact, that your assumption was correct? If you haven't, then you are guessing, so the idea that you are good at it might be misplaced. I'm not saying don't make the call, simply that you should acknowledge that your call is based upon what might be an erroneous assumption.

All that said, I was pleased to watch a game today where one of the referees was calling exclusions because hands were being placed onto heads and faces in center. In other words, the exclusion was called even if the pass was not very good. The result in this game was a very, very low level of physicality (where both teams have a 'history' with each other, and it was a very important game for them at JOs). This meant a much more enjoyable game to watch, fewer parents screaming at officials, fewer coach admonishments, and an overall good reflection on the sport. This as opposed to the game posted in the YMTC #29 post where there was a fair bit of scrappiness going on in the game, resulting in many exclusions in the 4th quarter (the video is at the end of the 3rd).

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contrafoul
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Re: Faking...

Postby contrafoul » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:21 pm

I notice it all the time. I never reward it, unless defense is so out of position with hands down, that I would call it anyways. Because I was a player who got away with it, and got rewarded for it, I know what it looks like. When you see people defending and throwing their head back multiple times, you can probably assume they will be doing it the entire game. Solution: yellow card to that player, which becomes a warning to the entire team that any more simulation will be a red card. I often pull the ball out and show a yellow and card for simulation but I have never had a partner referee do this. There are times when I have rewarded players for simulation and it drives me crazy.

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Re: Faking...

Postby oldtimer » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:32 pm

How do you know it is simulation? What empirical evidence is there, except your assumption, that it is simulation?

I've been throat checked by an offensive player in various games, which caused me to throw my head back - multiple times. It wasn't simulation - but your response seems to indicate that this a 'sure sign'.

I've had my suit/leg/foot grabbed just long enough to slow me down and prevent me from getting to my intended spot (either to defend, or get open for a pass) - which takes away any advantage I might have had. But, no call because... it *might* be simulation. I can assure you that I have *never* simulated a foul, because I played when fouls just weren't called very often (every foul was a personal foul) and my coach simply did not teach that. I've taught my son the same way.

If you are a player who is quick/fast and can get open by making sudden lunges and moves - there is absolutely no reason to simulate a foul. Yet, I've seen posts from referees convinced that simulation is a benefit to everyone.

Here is my opinion: You cannot coach players based upon how you personally played, because they don't have the same skills/talents you did. You cannot referee based upon how you personally played, because not everyone plays that way. It makes for bad coaches and referees (again, IMO).

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contrafoul
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Re: Faking...

Postby contrafoul » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:39 pm

No I don't assume they are faking, I watch them and see what happens. If there is no contact and they are throwing their head back, I put two and two together...

Wish I could go back as a player and relive my glory days now that I know the rules... I never had an experienced coach who really knew how to coach an attacker with inside water.

Now when I talk to young players, I encourage them to read the rule book. Most have never done it. If I was a coach, I would give all my players the rules test for officials so they learn all the correct terms and know all the rules. Are any programs doing this? From my experience on the deck, not many of the coaches are completely familiar with the rules. When they are, it is obvious. I'll let a coach like that yell at me a lot more than someone who clearly does not.

clath
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Re: Faking...

Postby clath » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:00 pm

You need to accept that its impossible to consistently figure out who's faking, in a way that allows you to referee fairly and consistently. The fact that the game takes place in water makes it impossible to see who's holding who. If you try to only judge based on what you see, or try to make assumptions, you'll make lots of mistakes.
This fundamental truth is why the rules rely so heavily on position and advantage. If someone has earned an advantage by great position, they should get more calls than the opposition. That position is something that is easy to see, regardless of the water. An easy example can be at 2m. Its very hard to see if the 2m defender is holding the 2m man, and if you try to call purely on who you see holding, you'll be very frustrated. Instead, referees should be encouraged to note the position of the two players in relation to each other (does someone have inside water, is the defender on the side or directly behind the offense) and the position of the two players in the pool (are they on the 2m line at center goal, or at the 5m line at the post) as well as the position of additional players (is there a drop close enough to effect the play). If we take drop defenders out of the equation for a second, we can be more likely to call an ejection for the offense if they have the defense directly behind them on the 2m line, than if they have been pushed further out and/or the defense has a lane to the ball. This doesn't mean we have to call an ejection even if we see the defender with both hands clearly out of the water, but we want to reward the player who has the advantage dictated by position.
This might seem confusing, but it will allow greater consistency.

oldtimer
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Re: Faking...

Postby oldtimer » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:08 pm

This is a mentality I can fully support. You hear all the time "I can only call what I see", and then you see a call based upon an assumption about what happened. If it is *obvious* that someone is faking - like putting head underwater and dropping the ball when the defender has both hands up - you still can make your decision based upon whether the offense has lost advantage or position. Nope! No call.

I absolutely despise the call where a player is obviously working for a foul at 5M (Dive at the 5!) repeatedly - then finally gets it after 3-4 tries and scores a goal at the end of the shot clock... or worse, at the end of the game. Saw this at the Commerce Tournament this summer, where a team was losing by a goal with seconds left in the game, the losing team scored a goal on a 'cheap' foul at 5M, then won the shootout. Annoying!

PMG
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Re: Faking...

Postby PMG » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:17 pm

As a parent/fan it's very frustrating to see faking being rewarded on a consistent basis. I watched about 6-7 games this weekend (various teams) and saw this more times than I could count:

Player A is being pressed by Player B just inside half tank...A is perhaps not skilled enough to leg away from B and make a pressure pass so A ducks head under water and drops ball as B has both hands up. Foul. No release by A teammates, B presses again...A splashes hard, ducks under again...foul.

Seems like many younger players think it's better to play for a foul for a free pass than learn the skills to complete a pressure pass.

Counter to that, not every head thrown back is a fake. My daughter was once yellow carded in a 14u game for simulation while defending 2m even though she was in tears after her head flew back from a headbutt that split her lip. She was afraid to show the ref the fat lip because she thought she would get red carded for dissent. BTW - no "verbal warning" was ever given. I guess the positive from that experience was we got her a mouthguard to protect the dental work!

No ref is perfect (nor should they be expected to be) but that just seemed a bit harsh.

(PS - former coach and state level referee in soccer so, while it's a different sport, I know what it's like with a whistle in hand)

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Namor
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Re: Faking...

Postby Namor » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:30 pm

Saw Hooper get a yellow card for his theatrics at the Cal v SC game. Maybe he should play soccer...

WPoloParent
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Re: Faking...

Postby WPoloParent » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:24 am

Namor wrote:Saw Hooper get a yellow card for his theatrics at the Cal v SC game. Maybe he should play soccer...


Hooper's Alma Mater, HW, is Faking Institute. 2-3 exclusions per game, sometimes more depending on the refs. They're so freaking good at it!

Cornershot
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Re: Faking...

Postby Cornershot » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:32 pm

So true!!! But I can't believe ref's buy some of their shenanigans.

sidelineview
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Re: Faking...

Postby sidelineview » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:45 pm

If Hooper received a yellow card in an NCAA game, the card was for a low level disrespect or misconduct, not for Simulation. There is no Simulation foul or warning in the NCAA rule book.

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Re: Faking...

Postby Doru Roll » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:28 am

sidelineview wrote:If Hooper received a yellow card in an NCAA game, the card was for a low level disrespect or misconduct, not for Simulation. There is no Simulation foul or warning in the NCAA rule book.

Perhaps you should spend less time on the sidelines and more time learning about the game. Below is a point of emphasis from the NCAA 2016-2018 rule book:

2. Simulation. Simulation refers to "an action taken by a player with the apparent intent of causing a referee to award a foul incorrectly against an opposing player." (FINA Rule 20-17). Although not expressly addressed in the NCAA rules, referees are directed to be aware of players "faking" a foul as a tactic and to apply the applicable rule(s) to address this behavior. If a player on offense simulates a foul, the ball should be turned over. If a player on defense simulates a foul, the referee must apply the advantage rule (Rule 3-5) in deciding whether to award a foul or not. A referee may also use the yellow card as a visible warning to the players in the water when simulation occurs. Any subsequent acts of simulation by any player on that team would be treated as misconduct.

An attacker who simulates for the purpose of drawing a foul can lose possession. A defender who simulates for the purpose of stopping the attack can be excluded. Either can get a yellow card.

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Re: Faking...

Postby ephpolo » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:55 am

If a player on offense simulates a foul, the ball should be turned over.

Good point Doru.

I'm curious how many referees have called a turnover on a perimeter player who is tightly guarded, wants an uncontested pass or shot (outside 5M), and does the push-my-shoulder-into-the-defender-sink-and-drop-the-ball move to "draw" a foul?

I think this is among the most common of the faked fouls, especially now with the shot from 5M. Despite how much it bothers me, I have never called a turnover here. I generally hold the whistle, figuring that if the offense wants to do dumb things and waste the shot clock, I shouldn't interfere. Often the offensive player will do this multiple times, all while the defender is showing both hands, so the intent is pretty clear. I'm wondering if I should be calling contra's here instead, but I don't think any of my partners have called this either, except in cases where the move into the defender was strong enough to be an offensive foul without calling the "fake".

By contrast, both I and refereeing partners have used the new instruction to call faked fouls by the offense in other situations--typically where the foul being faked, if called, would have been an exclusion, not an ordinary.

If we should be calling this more often, where does the player cross the line between simple bad offense and "earning" a contra foul for faking? And is it appropriate that we apply the same penalty for faking an ordinary foul (which has been taught by coaches as a tactic at least since I was learning to play in the early 80's) as for faking an exclusion?

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