I have never seen this...ideas?

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thesupernuge
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I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby thesupernuge » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:17 am

Sorry no video (yet) but saw an odd one the other day. The blue team is a man up after an exclusion, blue team moves to score after a rebound off the cage and after/as he scores the refs notice the ejected white player comes in early. The refs blow the play dead (well after the goal), determined the ejected white player came in early and then remove the goal from the blue team. Instead they award the blue team a penalty throw.

The idea was to take away a goal to award a penalty?

At least this is how it was discussed by the refs on the deck....

It never occurred to me but if this is the correct call why not have your player enter early every time if a goal is eminent? % of successful penalties are much less that 100%.

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby thesupernuge » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:41 pm

Let me know if I need to clarify here :D

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Allen Lorentzen
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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby Allen Lorentzen » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:32 pm

thesupernuge wrote:Sorry no video (yet) but saw an odd one the other day. The blue team is a man up after an exclusion, blue team moves to score after a rebound off the cage and after/as he scores the refs notice the ejected white player comes in early. The refs blow the play dead (well after the goal), determined the ejected white player came in early and then remove the goal from the blue team. Instead they award the blue team a penalty throw.

The idea was to take away a goal to award a penalty?

At least this is how it was discussed by the refs on the deck....

It never occurred to me but if this is the correct call why not have your player enter early every time if a goal is eminent? % of successful penalties are much less that 100%.


The way I read your description, it would have been entirely reasonable for the officials to allow the goal and ignore the early reentry. There may be more to the story. Perhaps they were waived in early, a correctable error, in which case they may have asked the offended coach if he wanted to go back to the time of the error. (edit: under current instructions typically we would not go back and remove the goal since the attacking team had not been damaged by the early reentry) With the goal taken back, and the player charged with a penalty, that player now has another foul against them. Again, there may be more to the story...
Last edited by Allen Lorentzen on Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thesupernuge
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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby thesupernuge » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:36 pm

As a coach if I send in a kid early can I prevent a goal for a penalty? And let me be clear, I am not saying this is what the coach did. In fact I'm sure he didn't...
It just brings up the question

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LimeyPoloDad
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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby LimeyPoloDad » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:24 pm

thesupernuge wrote:As a coach if I send in a kid early can I prevent a goal for a penalty? And let me be clear, I am not saying this is what the coach did. In fact I'm sure he didn't...
It just brings up the question


Are you saying you would send you player in early after the goal was scored to receive a penalty? Or send your player in while the 6 on 5 is in progress, thinking a goal is about to be scored and receive a penalty?

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby thesupernuge » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:27 pm

Hypothetically, either if it resulted in a penalty and removal of an opponents goal.

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby klazs » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:51 pm

I was at a 14U game when the other team had a 6 on 5 with little time remaining and a one goal lead. The opposing coach "told" (tosses) his player in early to stop the clock and takes his chances with the penalty. LOL. It was quite a sight. Didn't work.

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby thesupernuge » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:31 am

This is a fascinating flaw in the rules unless someone can prove me wrong. Sending in the (ejected) player early removes the goal from the scoring team yet awards them with a penalty attempt. I'm not aware of any other sport "allowing" this kind of situation.

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby veritas137 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:47 am

The goal was scored and play was stopped without the ref noticing until after. Leave the goal on the board and make note of it to keep an eye out next time. You don't go back for missed calls.

I saw a similar thing happen at a HS boys tournament a month ago while working the clock.

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby oldtimer » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:17 am

This kind of goes back to my minor rant about the Advantage rule being used when convenient, and ignored when not. Wouldn't calling the penalty and deducting the goal be an advantage to the offending team? Doesn't the referee have the discretion of not calling the penalty?

It's the same thing I mentioned when a goal from center is called invalid because the exclusion was whistled just a moment too soon. Advantage defensive offender...

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby thesupernuge » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:44 am

veritas137 wrote:The goal was scored and play was stopped without the ref noticing until after. Leave the goal on the board and make note of it to keep an eye out next time. You don't go back for missed calls.

I saw a similar thing happen at a HS boys tournament a month ago while working the clock.

That's what rational people would call-eliminates the issue altogether

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby thesupernuge » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:45 am

oldtimer wrote:Wouldn't calling the penalty and deducting the goal be an advantage to the offending team? Doesn't the referee have the discretion of not calling the penalty?
Advantage defensive offender...

My point exactly and ironically it takes away offensive advantage if you want to look at it that way too

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby Doru Roll » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:09 am

This is pretty clear and has nothing to do with any obscure interpretations of WP7.3. The attacking team had advantage and the player who entered early didn't take it away. The goal is kept. If the player entered early because (s)he was mistakenly waved in early by the desk, there is nothing more to do. If (s)he entered without being mistakenly waved in by the desk then (s)he is excluded for the rest of the game. No penalty is awarded since a probable goal was not prevented. That's about all. The referees "over-thank" advantage and messed it up.

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby thesupernuge » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:33 am

Doru Roll wrote:This is pretty clear and has nothing to do with any obscure interpretations of WP7.3. The attacking team had advantage and the player who entered early didn't take it away. The goal is kept. If the player entered early because (s)he was mistakenly waved in early by the desk, there is nothing more to do. If (s)he entered without being mistakenly waved in by the desk then (s)he is excluded for the rest of the game. No penalty is awarded since a probable goal was not prevented. That's about all. The referees "over-thank" advantage and messed it up.


Agreed. Your point is that it is not a loophole per say, just a mistake on their part. That was my chief argument....thanks

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Re: I have never seen this...ideas?

Postby oldtimer » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:07 am

Doru Roll wrote:This is pretty clear and has nothing to do with any obscure interpretations of WP7.3. The attacking team had advantage and the player who entered early didn't take it away. The goal is kept. If the player entered early because (s)he was mistakenly waved in early by the desk, there is nothing more to do. If (s)he entered without being mistakenly waved in by the desk then (s)he is excluded for the rest of the game. No penalty is awarded since a probable goal was not prevented. That's about all. The referees "over-thank" advantage and messed it up.


What I meant by "used when convenient" is that it's sometimes used as an excuse rather than as a reason.

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