Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

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Mitch
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Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby Mitch » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:32 pm

Why does Luca Cupido get to talk and openly complain to refs during games? The refs have been, frankly, a bit spineless in dealing with him since Rio. Thought I'd ask why on the ref forum here....thanks!

ramman
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby ramman » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:31 pm

Some refs are intimidated by certain players and teams. I have noticed the talking back as well and I know some of these refs and they wouldn't put up with it from a "b" player. These same referees will call games favoring certain teams. I don't know if it is because they are intimidated by the prestige of their coach, national players or by general criticism that if the "better" team loses - they'll be to blame. In the end it is frustrating because the thrill of the underdog winning never exists in water polo because of these "intimidation" factors.

kingfish
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby kingfish » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:21 pm

Just witnessed a ref on the east coast flip off a spectator from the stands who was obviously upset with his ability to call a fair game. Ejections were 15-7 and the team's best player having approx. 5 minutes of actual play time before getting his 3rd ejection. While the fan was in the wrong, I've never seen a college ref react in such a foul manner. After his gesture, he actually turned around on his way to the scoring table and mouthed the words F... you. There were at least 20 other fans who were in the same section who witnessed this action. Now this we don't need in the game of water polo.

oldtimer
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby oldtimer » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:07 pm

I have not had a chance to see a lot of D1 college games this year, but I have been watching D2/D3 games that are local. I have noticed a lot more talking to officials this year from players. Usually to ask why a call was made, but sometimes just making 'editorial comments'. I've only seen a yellow card given two or three times for this, while I've seen at least a dozen situations where the player makes a comment. Occasionally, the official actually answers back.

Natascot
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby Natascot » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:46 am

I live in Texas and watch high school water polo here. I'm not sure whether I'm relieved or even more frustrated to read this post. The officiating in Texas is absolutely abysmal, and I've been under the impression that it's better in California (and elsewhere) and it will just take a little time for the quality of Texas officiating to increase. This is discouraging. :sad:

oldtimer
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby oldtimer » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:34 pm

I seem to recall that in the 'old days', the team captain(s) could talk to the referee and question calls. Not sure when that was changed, but very often I will see a coach asking a referee to explain a call only to get ignored or even worse to be waved at to stop asking questions. Obviously, discussions are allowed during time outs and quarter breaks (when the coach might want to actually speak with his players), but it is difficult to make game time adjustments when you have no idea what/why calls are being made.

ephpolo
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby ephpolo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:09 pm

not just the old days:

Art. 2. After the pregame meeting, the head coach and captain are the only
individuals authorized to address the referees. The head coach and captain may
address the referees at intervals between periods and during timeouts, or with
the permission of the referee or, in the case of the head coach, when filing a
protest. The time after a goal is scored is not intended as an opportunity for the
head coach to address the referee unless the referee expressly grants permission.
The head coach and captain may discuss rule clarifications and misapplications
of rules with the officials at these times, but may not comment to or address the
referee during the actual play of the game. Judgment calls are not an appropriate
topic of discussion at any time. The referees shall have the authority to order any
player from the water in accordance with the appropriate rule and to abandon
the game should a player refuse to leave the water when so ordered (see Rule
7-12-1)

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deepwater
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby deepwater » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:01 pm

oldtimer wrote:I seem to recall that in the 'old days', the team captain(s) could talk to the referee and question calls. Not sure when that was changed, but very often I will see a coach asking a referee to explain a call only to get ignored or even worse to be waved at to stop asking questions. Obviously, discussions are allowed during time outs and quarter breaks (when the coach might want to actually speak with his players), but it is difficult to make game time adjustments when you have no idea what/why calls are being made.


So true oldtimer...

Saw a Yellow card flashed at Hooper for chipping at the refs… Same with Vavic and Everist. It's mind boggling the lack of respect that is shown to refs. Then again, most refs are weak and soft, including the evaluators monitoring the games. Set the ground rules ref/evaluators, tell the Capts they are the only ones that can speak to a ref with a grievance. Anyone else gets a yellow and then a red. If a red is given and a coach like Everist t/o’s (known past incident) the card to an asst coach, then mr/ms ref level the bench until that card hits the target. Take a hard stance refs/evaluators. It’s an absolute embarrassment to the whistle and sport - teaches age group it’s OK to belittle you. :oops:

Greg D.
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby Greg D. » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:05 pm

deepwater wrote:
oldtimer wrote:I seem to recall that in the 'old days', the team captain(s) could talk to the referee and question calls. Not sure when that was changed, but very often I will see a coach asking a referee to explain a call only to get ignored or even worse to be waved at to stop asking questions. Obviously, discussions are allowed during time outs and quarter breaks (when the coach might want to actually speak with his players), but it is difficult to make game time adjustments when you have no idea what/why calls are being made.


So true oldtimer...

Saw a Yellow card flashed at Hooper for chipping at the refs… Same with Vavic and Everist. It's mind boggling the lack of respect that is shown to refs. Then again, most refs are weak and soft, including the evaluators monitoring the games. Set the ground rules ref/evaluators, tell the Capts they are the only ones that can speak to a ref with a grievance. Anyone else gets a yellow and then a red. If a red is given and a coach like Everist t/o’s (known past incident) the card to an asst coach, then mr/ms ref level the bench until that card hits the target. Take a hard stance refs/evaluators. It’s an absolute embarrassment to the whistle and sport - teaches age group it’s OK to belittle you. :oops:


As a Rugby player and father of two, I have to agree with the statements above. In our short time in water polo I've seen referee's kick spectators out of the stands for far less than what age group or college coaches/players commit and receive.

I love the physicality of this sport along with the physical agilities however, the game should be won by your abilities in the sport, not your mouth. Not sure why referee's allow this? There is a clear sense of which players and coaches get away with more...

I play one of the most physical games in the world and ground rules are set at a very young age with regards to who may speak with officials. Not saying my sport is perfect however, we are professional, even at a young age. I don't want to get into the habit of discussing poor sportsmanship with my children on a weekly basis as they see these antics . Can anything be done to stabilize these issues?

bdysrfr
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby bdysrfr » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:56 am

Bottom line... no support from the upper admin!
Plus, Coaches have waaaay to much POWER & input over
who works their games. If a coach doesn’t like the way you officiated their game, they can blackball you from ever doing their games. If they feel you don’t like them or they lost because of a call you made, they can blackball you from their games & ever stepping foot on their home pool deck again.

Greg D.
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby Greg D. » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:51 pm

bdysrfr wrote:Bottom line... no support from the upper admin!
Plus, Coaches have waaaay to much POWER & input over
who works their games. If a coach doesn’t like the way you officiated their game, they can blackball you from ever doing their games. If they feel you don’t like them or they lost because of a call you made, they can blackball you from their games & ever stepping foot on their home pool deck again.


Help me understand - not to be argumentative however, you as a ref will not reprimand a player or coach for talking back to you because you are worried a coach will ban you from refereeing their games? If this is your only means than it makes human sense however, that is a terrible excuse to do your job to the fullest, that is derelict of duty in my mind. Coaches and players are bound to know this and take full advantage of you. Disappointed to hear this – the sport will never evolve because of poor emotions.

bdysrfr
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby bdysrfr » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:41 pm

What I’m saying is “you’re damned if you do, damned if you dont!”

At the D1 (NCAA) level... if ya give a coach a card,
the evaluators will “ding” you & say..you gave the card either to soon or to late. “damned if you do, damned if you dont!”

Coaches will blame you or dislike you, if you Card them at all... even tho they know they deserved the card.
“damned if you do, damned if you dont!”

Plus, the Coaches can & will have you removed or black balled from any future home games. The referees upper admin wants refs to basically protect coaches from themselves. If coaches receive a certain amount of “red cards” they could lose their jobs or be suspended.

Although players are a different story. I never understood why refs protect them at all. Yes, removing a team’s best player obviously affects the team & game. But they need to learn!

Example of protecting players here in USA vs International:

Flagrant Misconduct (brutality) is penalized by a:
NCAA : penalty shot (dead time), + :20sec 6on5, and removal from the game.

FINA: Penalty Shot & removal from game and 6-5 for 4 minutes!

jbc
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby jbc » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:36 am

bdysrfr wrote:Bottom line... no support from the upper admin!
Plus, Coaches have waaaay to much POWER & input over
who works their games. If a coach doesn’t like the way you officiated their game, they can blackball you from ever doing their games. If they feel you don’t like them or they lost because of a call you made, they can blackball you from their games & ever stepping foot on their home pool deck again.

I agree that the influence that coaches can have over officiating assignments and other official related issues is problematic in allowing officials to make difficult calls on penalizing players' or coaches' behavior. On the flip side, have you seen the way basketball and football coaches talk to officials? Are we just overly sensitive? Maybe those sports are too loose. I think it's easier to avoid issue with bigger sports because yelling in a loud arena of thousands of fans is not as much of a sight as it can be in water polo. Not sure which way I would rather see it go, curious to hear other peoples' thoughts.

IF we are trying to control the conduct, we should give the officials tools to do so beyond just cards. I think a yellow card is garbage. It really does nothing. There should be a consequence that goes with the warning such as a loss of a time out, or in the case of no time outs left, a penalty shot. A red card should be an automatic penalty or something beyond just kicking the coach off the deck. I also don't think a red card should be a suspension for the following game. I know it is meant to be a deterrent and maybe coaches would feel free to rack up red cards in the end of games they were losing. Maybe if the red card happens in the last 4 mins of play, then the coach must sit out the next game as well. Not sure, but maybe giving up a penalty shot on the red is just as much of a deterrent.

The reason I am not in favor of the suspension from the following game is that I think it may be too severe of a penalty for the red card and officials are less likely to use that.

I have heard coaches say that they will intentionally take yellow cards for one reason or another. Maybe true to our sport where a foul is actually an advantage to the offending team, yellow cards can be strategically advantageous in some situations.

As far as players talking to officials, I think officials have too much power, or maybe the penalties for enforcing those situations are too severe. We have a scenario where the options for officials are 1 - call nothing and take it, 2 - issue an exclusion against that player, 3 - on rare occasion cards to players are used. We expect a lot of control over the situation when we give the officials such limited tools to do so. Those tools are on far opposite extremes of what the reaction can be. Maybe on first account, the game is stopped and that player has to be subbed out without an exclusion being administered but must sit out of the game for at least 4 mins, on second offense, it is an exclusion and third is a penalty and ejection from the remainder of the game.

Who knows. There is a big part of me that disagrees with the idea of adding rules to a game that is already, at times, too complex and subjective to be consistent. Point is, I think we can help the situation as a sport if we are able to provide a more reasonable yet stern set of consequences for the officials to use to enforce decorum.

Thesita
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby Thesita » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:03 am

What about yellows build up?

2 yellows in 3 games= 1 game suspension?

ephpolo
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Re: Luca (and others) talking to refs during game?

Postby ephpolo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:22 pm

Yellow cards are warnings. They shouldn't result in a penalty or suspension.

If the player or coach has done something that deserves a consequence, a yellow card is the wrong tool.

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