You Make The Call #32

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tomj
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Re: You Make The Call #32

Postby tomj » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:46 pm

I agree that the defender initiated contact--contact he was entitled to make, as the offensive player had the ball. But just before the shot, I see the defender's body move away from the offensive player towards the goal. It's not violent, and his head does not snap, but the only way that happens is if the offensive player pushed him away with the off hand. And he's not entitled to do that.


I don't think that is the only way it happens. When a small person is latched onto a big person, and the big person turns hard and then stops, the small person often keeps moving, creating space. The defender was moving himself in that direction as well, attempting to get in front and not be turned. There was no obvious use of the head or arms to create separation, at least not from the view of the camera. So no contra was called.

ephpolo
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Re: You Make The Call #32

Postby ephpolo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:38 pm

tomj wrote:
I agree that the defender initiated contact--contact he was entitled to make, as the offensive player had the ball. But just before the shot, I see the defender's body move away from the offensive player towards the goal. It's not violent, and his head does not snap, but the only way that happens is if the offensive player pushed him away with the off hand. And he's not entitled to do that.


I don't think that is the only way it happens. When a small person is latched onto a big person, and the big person turns hard and then stops, the small person often keeps moving, creating space. The defender was moving himself in that direction as well, attempting to get in front and not be turned. There was no obvious use of the head or arms to create separation, at least not from the view of the camera. So no contra was called.


Maybe. But the defender kept moving (and sinking) just to the point that he reached the offensive player's arm length. The defender's sinking and movement toward the goal are the "equal and opposite reaction" to the action of the offensive player pushing himself up and away. Sure looks like an offensive push-off to me. But it's just the last of several fouls back and forth between these two players, any one of which would have been called.

madone
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Re: You Make The Call #32

Postby madone » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:34 pm

This is an exclusion. The defender disappears underwater at the start of the drive and then pulls on the drivers left hip to get back into (terrible) defensive position. There probably 10 calls that could be made on this play, but the first one that looks obvious is the pull back in order to reestablish position.

ephpolo
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Re: You Make The Call #32

Postby ephpolo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:20 pm

Assume you are talking about the one at about 3-4 seconds?

I agree. Then at 4-5 seconds, the offensive player retaliates, wrapping the defender's arm and sinking him. Contra.

At about 7 seconds, the defender pulls back again as the offensive player gets ready to receive a pass. Exclusion.

Offensive player then receives the ball, make a nice spin move for a shot, and bl#$% it by pushing off and sinking the defender. Contra/no goal.

Great sequence on the importance of calling the first foul, before things escalate. That said, the first foul would be a whole lot less obvious in live time by a referee watching three different pairs of players. It is a call the current NCAA points of emphasis want us to make.

The last contra is by far the most obvious, and is the result of the escalation from the earlier no-calls. This happens all the time in games.

MaxTork
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Re: You Make The Call #32

Postby MaxTork » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:23 pm

The player who scored committed a push-off contra on the drive, which often is called as an exclusion, and wrapped the defender again on the scoring play. Should have been whistled several times, but not as a goal. As a retort, the defender was in poor position throughout to defend against the ball, so you're less likely to reward his play.

oldtimer
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Re: You Make The Call #32

Postby oldtimer » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:27 pm

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to generate.

I think video is a great way for referees to hone their skills (just as with players - and even coaches!). I was a a meeting where video was used in just this way, and is appears that it was used to critique the referees at the game as well. Not sure how often that is done, but it's the first time I saw it being used this way.

There was a time when video was frowned upon. I can understand not wanting to have errors publicized, but I think it's the best way for our sport to improve. With today's technology, video is everywhere!

ephpolo
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Re: You Make The Call #32

Postby ephpolo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:38 pm

oldtimer wrote:This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to generate.

I think video is a great way for referees to hone their skills (just as with players - and even coaches!). I was a a meeting where video was used in just this way, and is appears that it was used to critique the referees at the game as well. Not sure how often that is done, but it's the first time I saw it being used this way.

There was a time when video was frowned upon. I can understand not wanting to have errors publicized, but I think it's the best way for our sport to improve. With today's technology, video is everywhere!


I've seen and in one case listened in on CWPA video evaluation. They had a camera and an evaluator watching play and marking the video for plays to review, and at halftime and after the game the two referees and the evaluator reviewed all of the flagged calls. This was a game officiated by two very experienced referees, who had both been through this process a bunch of times, with an evaluator they appeared to trust and like. It worked well. I don't know often it's done. Just listening in I learned a lot. There were a few cases of "I didn't see that and I should have (or, I see that a lot better from the angler the camera had"), but most of the flagged plays fell into three categories distributed about equally: (1) I didn't see that and should have called it; (2) Seeing that on replay, from a different angle, several times, slowed down, and with freeze frame, I should have made a different call; (3) Borderline or "Range of Acceptable" calls where between the two referees and the evaluator there was a range of opinions on the "right" call.

I don't know if other leagues do this.

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