Question on rules

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oldtimer
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Question on rules

Postby oldtimer » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:05 am

I've not had this occur before (that I recognized), so I am asking referees here what - if any - remedy there is when the table (or official) forgets/fails to wave in an excluded player for 4-5 seconds after the 20 second exclusion has expired. This video shows such a situation, where it is possible (perhaps) that a goal could have been prevented had the player been waved in on time. You can see the shot clock from the beginning of the exclusion to the goal.

Is this something that can be brought up to the official, where he/she can check the books and consider it a 'correctable error'? Or is it just one of those you-just-gotta-live-with-it situations?

https://vimeo.com/373830633

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kwinin
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Re: Question on rules

Postby kwinin » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:38 am

Yes, the failure to wave in an excluded player is a correctable error. This looks like a high school game so look at Rule 3-11 Art 3 b where it is cited as an example of a correctable error.

However, it is likely that the video you posted does not show such a failure. 1. You can't see the desk so you don't know when the flag was raised. 2. perhaps, more importantly, the excluded player doesn't reach the reentry area and surface until after 20 seconds is up so they are not entitled to reenter at 10 seconds on the shot clock and they would not be waved in until they do. 3. And given that this a high school water polo game, the shot clock is of course malfunctioning (watch is stop and jump ahead during the video) so when they re entered is less than clear.

As a result given that there is some small amount of time between the player surfacing, the flag being raised and the player re entering, the time of reentry doesn't really seem late.
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oldtimer
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Re: Question on rules

Postby oldtimer » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:59 am

Thank you. I think the flag was being waved and the player didn't see it - but while reviewing the video the question popped into my head while watching the coach gesture to the officials. I just wanted to know in case something like that happened whether it could be corrected using the exclusion time and the time of the goal as a reference.

tomj
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Re: Question on rules

Postby tomj » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:56 pm

Yes, failure to wave for re-entry is a correctable error. The correction is to put the clocks back to where they were 20 sec after the exclusion, put the excluded player in the exclusion area, give the offense the ball on top, and restart the game, with the excluded play eligible for re-entry immediately upon restart.

That said, the error is only corrected if it is significant in the judgment of the officials. If there is a goal a second or two after the expiration, the failure to raise the flag will likely not judged to be significant.

oldtimer
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Re: Question on rules

Postby oldtimer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:43 pm

Thank you... but now I have another question (only somewhat related).

In one of the State Regional games, a player was excluded sometime during the 3rd quarter. It was his 3rd, but he (and the coach) failed to recognize that because one of his fouls was a penalty and they 'brain farted' on that - they thought he had two and sat him for the rest of the 3rd. However, neither referees nor coaches saw the red flag waved at the table - so this player went in for the 4th quarter.

Partway through the 4th, it was recognized that he should not be playing so the referees stopped the game. They consulted with the table, and the girl said she waved the flag - but, as I noted, nobody saw it. So they restarted the quarter and assessed a penalty shot against the team. I don't know the score at the time the 3rd penalty was given, but it was 6-4 when the game was stopped. There was much confusion, and the penalty shot scored. The game ended 9-5 in favor of the opposing team.

Given that in HS the table is usually being run by a HS student, and who knows whether that student is just trying to cover for a mistake or not - should the referees take the word of the table, or should they assume that the table missed it and not assess the penalty? In other words, if neither of them saw the flag should they assume it was not waved?

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Re: Question on rules

Postby sbdad » Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:51 pm

I have a quick question regarding the "getting the ball live" rule. Defensive player commits ordinary foul and knocks the ball forward about 1 meter. offensive player moves inside to get the ball now at 5 meters with defender behind him. As the offensive player "pops" the ball up the defender attacks his arm. Kick out or no call?? I assume kick out since if he were passing or shooting after an ordinary and the defender encroaches he is kicked out. I guess the referee decided that since the ball left the players hand it was instantly live. Just curious how our experts would call that?

oldtimer
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Re: Question on rules

Postby oldtimer » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:44 pm

I'm going to answer this in a new post - I hope you don't mind.

I'm no expert, but I think this could be an interesting discussion so it deserves to have its own topic, in my opinion. :-)

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