NCAA

Womens College Water Polo
DinsdalePiranha
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NCAA

Postby DinsdalePiranha » Sun May 10, 2015 8:14 pm

14 to 3, Cal played a heck of a game
he nailed your head to the floor? Wol, e ad to, I ad transgressed the unwritten law...

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Polodad
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Re: NCAA

Postby Polodad » Sun May 10, 2015 10:08 pm

A not very satisfying end to the Nat championship game. I was watching on the NCAA stream. In replay could not see if UCLA got TO call while in possession. Did refs get it right?

And while I am here, did USC score a natural goal or were their 9 all 6 on 5 on (as it seemed on Twitter)?

retiredguy
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Re: NCAA

Postby retiredguy » Sun May 10, 2015 10:40 pm

I was watching the stream as well and will have to go back to the video again to see when the UCLA horn was blown, the replay they showed didn't have sound. The officials are in a bad spot either way on that one, but might have been better to just award the timeout and let the game play out in OT (most likely UCLA wasn't gonna score with 11 secs left).

Congrats to Stanford though for an exciting win!

Unknown
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Re: NCAA

Postby Unknown » Sun May 10, 2015 11:16 pm

At no point was Stanford in possession of the ball. It was UCLA possession even after the ball was thrown by the goalie.
Bad call and horrible way to decide a championship. Way too much power in the hands of the official who should be an invisible part of the game.

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Water-Polo-Fan
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Re: NCAA

Postby Water-Polo-Fan » Mon May 11, 2015 12:03 am

Unknown wrote:At no point was Stanford in possession of the ball. It was UCLA possession even after the ball was thrown by the goalie.
Bad call and horrible way to decide a championship. Way too much power in the hands of the official who should be an invisible part of the game.

Before we start trashing the referees, the rule left them no choice. The UCLA goalie tossed the ball away from the cage and while NEITHER team was in "possession" of the ball, the call was made when the UCLA coach called TO. Unfortunate for UCLA but it was preventable. Had the coach called the TO immediately on his goalie's save (instead of scrambling to call it while his goalie was in trouble and she ultimately took things into her own hands by throwing the ball away from the goal) we were probably headed for OT. UCLA coach clearly called it AFTER the ball was tossed away from the goal and NEITHER team had possession of the ball. It would be unfair to Stanford to NOT make the correct call as both teams are subject to the benefits as well as the discipline of the rule book. Had things been reversed UCLA would have been crying foul as well. It is what it is. The air horn should have been ready to go while Stanford was in UCLA's defensive end activated the horn IMMEDIATELY. I feel bad for UCLA but it's not Stanford's or the official's fault it ended the way it did. Bummer all around for sure.

Rule 12 Section 6
Timeout Called When Neither Team Has Possession
If a team calls for a timeout when neither team has possession of the ball, the referee shall blow the whistle and award a penalty throw to the team that did not call the timeout, and take away the longest timeout available from the team that called the timeout improperly.

EHawkins19
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Re: NCAA

Postby EHawkins19 » Mon May 11, 2015 12:05 am

Unknown wrote:At no point was Stanford in possession of the ball. It was UCLA possession even after the ball was thrown by the goalie.
Bad call and horrible way to decide a championship. Way too much power in the hands of the official who should be an invisible part of the game.


I would agree it isn't the best call to make with a national title on the line. However, based on how it was played out, I think the referee would not have called it the way she had if the goalie had swam out with the ball, or the coach called the TO while she still had the ball in her hands, rather than dump it to the side.

Case in point, it's important to note, that at the same time a referee still has the same kind of power in a game similar to the Wisconsin vs. Kentucky basketball game that happened during March Madness. I think that this game definitely served as a reminder that anything can happen in a game, especially when it comes to the referee and what their role in the game is.

But at the end of the day, I don't think anyone could never have asked for a better way to conclude the 2015 women's college water polo season: a game that was engaging and left spectators on the edge of their seats, active the entire time, Greg Mescall dedicating the weekend to calling each play via live stream, and the entire stadium filled with fans who show their pride for their school. And that's what I think matters just as much the game does too.

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Re: NCAA

Postby WP Analytics » Mon May 11, 2015 1:06 am

Does anyone know where the exact definition of "Possession" is in the rule book. I can't seem to find it defined, but I found it used.

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Re: NCAA

Postby jkirk » Mon May 11, 2015 12:15 pm

I'm torn between making the exact right call vs the spirit of the game-not directly affecting the outcome. For sure a very tough spot to be in..... If Coach Brooks had as fast of a horn as Coach Everist did a few years back, would the same call have happened? I still feel that was a Q1 call, not a game decider. Just my two cents, don't think this will ever have a consensus....

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Re: NCAA

Postby Go WP » Mon May 11, 2015 3:59 pm

From the rulebook 21.3c : "possession of the ball (which means receiving control of the ball) during actual play"

So, Brandon says he called it earlier, ref said he didn't call until ball flipped but acknowledged it was momentarily possessed.

My question is, shouldn't Brandon have told ref before play commenced that he wanted T.O. the instant he possessed it?

EDIT: I'm told Brandon DID say he told them beforehand that he wanted timeout once they possessed it.

sidelineview
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Re: NCAA

Postby sidelineview » Mon May 11, 2015 4:08 pm

From NCAA Sept. 2014 Clarification Memorandum:

4. Rule 12-6 – Timeout Called When Neither Team Has Possession: Possession includes
physically controlling the ball, holding the ball, or the referee's whistle indicating one
team has been awarded the ball. Possession does not include when the ball is in the air
on a pass or shot, nor does it include being closest to or merely touching the ball
without physically controlling or holding the ball.

The horn was blown just as the ball landed on the water. There is no doubt that UCLA would have retained possession once the field player got to the ball.

Not that long ago a referee could ignore a timeout call and wait for a team to regain possession. But that act of discretion was taken away about 4 years ago.

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poloshark
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Re: NCAA

Postby poloshark » Mon May 11, 2015 4:32 pm

You would have to change the rule. This is one that is not grey. If the coach would have said "Timeout" then the officials could have said I did not hear it, with the horn... all bets are off, if that horn comes after the goalie(which is what happens in this case) tosses the ball and no one has possession (Ball in hand, or swimming with) then you must apply the correct penalty. In this case that penalty is a 5m. If they don't make the call then that is a call that can be protested and would have been protested.

I still think that is to harsh a penalty. I think that it should go back to loss of possession and loss of TO.

Great job to the officials for getting this one right.

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kwinin
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Re: NCAA

Postby kwinin » Mon May 11, 2015 5:24 pm

Go WP wrote:From the rulebook 21.3c : "possession of the ball (which means receiving control of the ball) during actual play"

So, Brandon says he called it earlier, ref said he didn't call until ball flipped but acknowledged it was momentarily possessed.

My question is, shouldn't Brandon have told ref before play commenced that he wanted T.O. the instant he possessed it?

EDIT: I'm told Brandon DID say he told them beforehand that he wanted timeout once they possessed it.


And that illustrates that you can not call a TO in advance. All you are doing is putting the referees on notice that you want to call one so they are looking for it. You still have to call the TO.

sidelineview wrote:From NCAA Sept. 2014 Clarification Memorandum:

Not that long ago a referee could ignore a timeout call and wait for a team to regain possession. But that act of discretion was taken away about 4 years ago.

This I argue, is why you should avoid these bright line rules. The argument is that discretion can be a problem, but not allowing it leads to bad results. Officials in our sport or any others that will abuse discretion can find ways to circumvent bright line rules. Good officials that follow bright line rules are the ones you want to exercise discretion.

This may be the "correct" call but I for one think it is the "wrong" call. Ever since the rule has changed similar situations with bad out comes have been discussed. My favorite absurd result is the the goalie holding the ball and then making a long "safe" outlet pass. If the timing was as in this case with coaching deciding to call the TO as the goalie releases the ball the analysis that no one "possesses" the ball when it is in the air results in a penalty to the defensive team.
Mark

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Re: NCAA

Postby Doru Roll » Mon May 11, 2015 6:09 pm

kwinin wrote: ... This may be the "correct" call but I for one think it is the "wrong" call. Ever since the rule has changed similar situations with bad out comes have been discussed. My favorite absurd result is the the goalie holding the ball and then making a long "safe" outlet pass. If the timing was as in this case with coaching deciding to call the TO as the goalie releases the ball the analysis that no one "possesses" the ball when it is in the air results in a penalty to the defensive team.

The reason it was changed (as I remember it) was to prevent coaches from using a TO to retain possession after a bad pass. In this case there is no question that the goalie gave up possession by tossing the ball aside without an intended recipient. Bad timing on Coach Brooks' part, good call by referees.

anmalanman
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Re: NCAA

Postby anmalanman » Mon May 11, 2015 7:27 pm

If you are wondering about the accuracy of the call - as opposed to the appropriateness - there is a clear video clip of the timeout infraction from another angle at

http://www.uclabruins.com/ViewArticle.d ... =210082151


It looks to me like the call was accurate.

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Re: NCAA

Postby sidelineview » Mon May 11, 2015 8:35 pm

Post-game interview with UCLA...tough to listen to

https://soundcloud.com/gostanford/sunday-07-18-pm

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