2015 NJO

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dadonthedeck
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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby dadonthedeck » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:07 pm

College Baller wrote:LA created a turnover and quick counter attack. The ref stopped the play/counter due to a Socal player bleeding from the face; was that the right thing to do at that point and time by the ref- 2 more seconds and LA would have scored. That was a crucial point for LA.

A player bleeding from the face sounds like the sort of thing refs are there to prevent and manage. I sure wouldn't care about the play or clock if it were my kid.

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby PoloClubDad » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:18 pm

POLOrized wrote:Mid Valley coach gets a red card and then it gets taken away so they can finish the game vs. LB shore at Woodbridge ?


This is the mess that the 12 boys had to deal with at Woodbridge today with games running 75 to 90 minutes late by 12:00 PM:

The people working the table at Woodbridge were off and the site director was behind the 8-ball all day. The table neglected to record a goal for Mid Valley against LB Shore that would have made the game 8-7. The refs didn't award it. That led to a 25 minute delay and red card for the Mid Valley coach. Then the refs somehow made that red card disappear. MId-Valley lost the game. Mid Valley protested and Cullingham had to come down. I don't know the result of the protest.

In Vanguard vs. Northwood game the same same ref as above gives two red cards in 12 - 6 game with less than a minute to go. Vanguard coach was protecting a player that he thought was punch above water. The refs called a completely different game from the first to the 3rd quarter. Both refs working this game were all over the place. 680 coaches observing in the stands were commenting that the kids had no idea what was being called because these refs were not calling could properly.

SoCal v CC United was a good game with fairly consistent calls by the two refs. One ref (Rudy?) was to calming influence on the sidelines. Hard fought game with SoCal having just too much for CCU. Good solid game by both teams.

Then in the Newport vs. 680 game the clock said 1.8 seconds left in a tight game. The clock then went to 3 seconds inexplicably and 680 scores winning goal(?). Site director should have been more hands on but wasn't. Same refs allowed goal to stand.

This all happened on DAY 3 quarterfinals. Quite simply, there was a serious lack of leadership on deck all day. The kids deserve better.

The site director at Woodbridge was quiet and trying to put fires out all day all the while avoiding upset parents. 3 of the 4 refs were dismal and the other (Rudy?) was just trying to keep it all together. He was the only consistent presence on deck. Cullingham should never have left the deck and should have sent have sent those refs home. If this was an international tournament, they would have been dismissed.

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby Nohorsepolo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:48 pm

The Woodbridge games today were an absolute joke. The site director was completely overwhelmed. This was mostly due to poor calls. For some reason the ref felt like she needed to be part of the outcome of the game. Her calls were inconsistent and lack of knowledge was evident in the amount of wasted time talking about the calls. Both refs from the mid valley - shore game should have been sent home. To keep the female ref only to have her completely mess the next game shows poor leadership by USA polo. I would be perfectly happy never to see that ref again until she gets some proper training.

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby PoloNHB » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:06 pm

The MV missed goal in 12U at Woodbridge was horrible. Tight game the whole way, but MV looked like the better team and should have had a one goal lead with the ball and 2:30 left. Instead, it stays a tie game,there is a 20 minute delay, a red card followed by a reversal of the red card, followed by a 9-7 loss. I feel really bad for those boys as it eliminated them from title contention. I agree...the kids deserve much better. The ref that sent the two vanguard coaches packing also ref'd the MV game and she clearly wanted to be part of the action. Even if you could see her side to the first vanguard red card, the second was horrible as she was telling the assistant coach to sit down (he was not away from the bench) and the assistant coach was just stating that he now had the right to stand up as he had become the head coach since she red carded the head coach...no yellow that I saw, straight to red. She shouldn't have been allowed to ref another game after MV IMHO. It is one thing to miss calls...quite another to be that bad twice in on afternoon.

College Baller
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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby College Baller » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:19 pm

dadonthedeck wrote:
College Baller wrote:LA created a turnover and quick counter attack. The ref stopped the play/counter due to a Socal player bleeding from the face; was that the right thing to do at that point and time by the ref- 2 more seconds and LA would have scored. That was a crucial point for LA.

A player bleeding from the face sounds like the sort of thing refs are there to prevent and manage. I sure wouldn't care about the play or clock if it were my kid.


The kid was swimming out and not part of the play. The call truly hurt the end result.

dallen123
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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby dallen123 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:08 pm

how was premier able to take down md today. the premier team is the exact same team the md overpowered
a week ago in the state hs finals. and the md team has added 3 out going college kids to this team and
premier is minus hallock?. how is this possible?

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby H20poloMom2 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:57 pm

how was premier able to take down md today. the premier team is the exact same team the md overpowered
a week ago in the state hs finals. and the md team has added 3 out going college kids to this team and
premier is minus hallock?. how is this possible?

The Premier / Regency game was a great game - Hallock is playing for Premier. They were full strength today - haven't been the two times they played MD / Regency this summer. With Premier full strength, Regency couldn't triple team Hallock.

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby NoviceWPDad » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:12 pm

PoloNHB wrote:The MV missed goal in 12U at Woodbridge was horrible. Tight game the whole way, but MV looked like the better team and should have had a one goal lead with the ball and 2:30 left. Instead, it stays a tie game,there is a 20 minute delay, a red card followed by a reversal of the red card, followed by a 9-7 loss. I feel really bad for those boys as it eliminated them from title contention. I agree...the kids deserve much better. The ref that sent the two vanguard coaches packing also ref'd the MV game and she clearly wanted to be part of the action. Even if you could see her side to the first vanguard red card, the second was horrible as she was telling the assistant coach to sit down (he was not away from the bench) and the assistant coach was just stating that he now had the right to stand up as he had become the head coach since she red carded the head coach...no yellow that I saw, straight to red. She shouldn't have been allowed to ref another game after MV IMHO. It is one thing to miss calls...quite another to be that bad twice in on afternoon.

Does a red card mean they can't coach in the next game?

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby DWARF » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:09 am

The ref took back the Red Card in the MV Vs. LB Shore 12 UB's game. It was unfortunate that the desk made an error in the score.

veritas137
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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby veritas137 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:27 am

Why don't more teams have someone keeping their own book at the desk to challenge? I started doing this for my kids a few years back and have affected the outcome of several games where the desk recorded something wrong.

I know we all wish we had a professional desk but let's be honest, they are run by volunteers who can make mistakes.

The biggest issue I saw today was where a coach thought his team scored a goal and sent two players in to sub. It was actually called an offensive and the ref proceeded to roll the 2 players who came in. The ref then went back on the call and told the coach to pay better attention next time.

ramman
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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby ramman » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:37 am

The refs should be as un-noticed as the water, cages, caps, goal posts. Any time they are noticed or stand out it is because they are novice. I can watch a whole basketball game and not notice a referee. I know they are there and I hear the whistles but they aren't the main attraction. I watched several games today at the 18 and under level and one game the refs allowed only one team such aggressive plays as throat checking and allowing the defensive player to grab the offense by the neck THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE GAME. But then in the very next game THE EXACT SAME REFS called a tight game that they'd blow a foul at the touch of the defender to the shoulder of the offense. I used to believe (as a coach) that a team has to adjust to the refs to a degree because there are subjective calls, but when I sat and watched four games today in a row and could see a bias either toward a team or sometimes toward a particular player; I understood the angry parent and the angry coach. Some players are treated like royalty, either for their reputation of club, National Player, ref knows their family etc. and they can do whatever they want without a call and treated with white gloves and even some teams are treated with favors because the coach/club is well liked/respected. Watching teams play where I had no dog in the fight and trying to just enjoy the top level games gave me an epiphany to how stupid the whole water polo Junior Olympic sham is. There are teams who will win no matter what because the competition is so weak.... but evenly matched teams are decided by bias refs. I wish someone would tape games of different clubs with the SAME refs and put the calls on Water Polo Planet to show how bias they can be. A grandma behind me who barely knew the game could tell one ref was calling the game so lopsided toward Stanford vs OC game. This isn't bad refereeing who make bad calls without guile for both sides - this is worse. These are bias refs deliberately making one sided calls to benefit ONE particular team. There is no adjusting to the ref or coaching your player to play a different style. The fix is in. I am an old timer and I came to watch some games and be entertained and I left thinking about the main attraction - The referees. I hated it. I will not go back next year.

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby PoloNonooh » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:45 am

In general the refing has been poor (and that is probably being generous) across all levels for this JO's and brings into question the wisdom of USAWP's decision to expand JO's to the size it is. The level of play for the top 12 teams in the 4 age groups on day 3 is truly amazing. At the same time the very LOW level of professionalism exhibited by the referees working those game is also truly amazing. Until USAWP can appropriately staff those games we can only expect to see continued degradation of our sport. I would hesitate to say that it is money driven but during the last 4 years JO's has gone from 400 to 700 teams participating. The number of appropriately trained referees has not kept pace, in fact many of our old line, well experienced referees are now declining the opportunity to work JO's as they are paired with subpar partners and spend more time "fixing" bad calls than work a smoothly called game.

As always lately, its about that time of year when we all start asking when USAWP will fix the situation and In about a month USAWP will tell us that they have come up with a brilliant new solution to the Refing problem. Then next year at JO's there will be 100 more teams than this year, playing with even worse Refing and the Cycle of Bittchhing will start a new.

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby sidelineview » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:43 pm

PoloNonooh wrote:.... in fact many of our old line, well experienced referees are now declining the opportunity to work JO's as they are paired with subpar partners and spend more time "fixing" bad calls than work a smoothly called game....


And the poorly trained desk staffs are the other half of that equation BTW.

But there are much greater factors at play here. Simply put - you're asking officials to dedicate 9 straight days (Wed. is off, but you're still at JOs) to water polo. The younger officials typically have greater flexibility as they may not have families or work responsibilities that would deservedly take a higher priority. But the other reasons are obvious. Sun up to sun down water polo (games start early and run into when most people are eating dinner...and then the refs still have a meeting each night...so they end up dining well after 9pm and not getting to bed until late). Not a lot of fun and frankly it is a grind. Many senior officials simply don't have the patience (or the focus) to work lower level games and just don't want to put up with certain coaches and/or parents. Yes - the most experienced officials know how to deal with all of that. But the problem is that once you've worked any length of time at the upper levels, you don't want to have to deal with it at all. (The running joke is that JO coaches will whine and complain more in 1 quarter than what a ref may get all weekend at the annual SoCal collegiate tournament). It's a PITA. And it's not worth the money & it is certainly not worth taking a full-week's worth of vacation time for what eventually becomes a daily mixer/grind of lower level play & confrontation on the pool deck.

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby kingfish » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:08 pm

I certainly agree that doing 8-10 games a day for a week is a total grind. From what I've seen and heard, the refs incur a constant barrage of whines and comments from spectators who see some water splashing and expect a call. I'm sure when they talk later with their kid, he will tell them he was trying to draw a kick out. Unfortunately, all this "faking" will have an impact on a ref who will now miss a true foul. With that being said, I also see many officials who, during their history, have gotten to know certain teams / coaches / parents and their relationships can and do affect their call of the game. I hate to see them chatting up a certain coach or parent prior and during a game. This IMHO is just unprofessional. Obviously, with 700 teams, there are not enough qualified officials to cover all games. This is the problem to be dealt with. However, don't see a quick fix.

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Re: 2015 NJO

Postby wpgeek » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:55 pm

Great tight game in the 12UB's where Socal came out on top this time 7-6. Socal took a 3-1 lead, but Vanguard came back to tie it 3-3 and from there on it was a tight game right to the finish. Two very skilled 12U teams with great disciple and coaching. Both of these teams will be in the running again in 2016.

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