New 10u rule day before Jo

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Nohorsepolo
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New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby Nohorsepolo » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:31 pm

USA water polo has lost their mind. Instituting a new rule the day of Jo start. No crashing on set once he has the ball? They should be ashamed of themselves. Once the set player has the ball no crashing to defend. All the other players must stand back and wait to see what happens. This is the most stupid rule I have ever heard of. Time to start a new league without USA water polo. Their rules chairman should resign and move to Ayso soccer. Is it truly a championship anymore. I'm thinking not its let everyone play and everyone gets a medal. Again USA water polo bl#$% it again.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby LimeyPoloDad » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:22 pm

nohorsepolo,

The pros and cons of the new rules have been discussed at length. They were first announced at the USAWP Referee School in January and were used at JO quals and USCCs last month.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10954&start=30

PS Most of us don't like them.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby Unknown » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:48 pm

LimeyPoloDad, there is a NEW rule instituted A DAY before JO's. Now there is no crash at all as soon as center has the ball. It is a big change from changes made in January.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby LimeyPoloDad » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:00 pm

It's not really a new rule. It's more of an interpretation of the rule. If the ball is in the air you can crash. I am in my 6th day of 10s (girls first and now coed) and have seen various interpretations by the different refs.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby Unknown » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:07 pm

Yes, but once center has the ball you have to leave him even if you are a foot away. That is vastly different from JOquals and all other tournaments. It is indeed idiotic and makes no sense.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby fogofsport » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:26 pm

Few years ago, in 10u, they reduced the goal size (went to rubber goals) and shortened pool before JO's.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby oldtimer » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:32 pm

Unknown wrote:Yes, but once center has the ball you have to leave him even if you are a foot away. That is vastly different from JOquals and all other tournaments. It is indeed idiotic and makes no sense.


That sounds totally bizarre. The stated intent of the new rules was to emphasize the press on the perimeter to prevent a pass in, not to give the center a free shot.

It's like the interpretation that a 'live' ball was equivalent to 'in play' - whoever is doing the interpreting seems to have very little understanding of either the intent or how the game is actually played (from my viewpoint). Who is responsible for these interpretations?

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby Nohorsepolo » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:36 pm

Changing the rules can be a good thing and a bad thing depending on your situation. Changing the rules the day before competition is never a good thing. It shows poor leadership and lack of command of a situation. USA water polo is showing its soft underbelly. They need to re think their rules people. It makes it tough on coaches, refs, and more importantly the players. Just not right in many ways

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby Unknown » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:20 am

oldtimer wrote:That sounds totally bizarre. The stated intent of the new rules was to emphasize the press on the perimeter to prevent a pass in, not to give the center a free shot.

It's like the interpretation that a 'live' ball was equivalent to 'in play' - whoever is doing the interpreting seems to have very little understanding of either the intent or how the game is actually played (from my viewpoint). Who is responsible for these interpretations?


Oh believe me, it is! The coaches were totally pissed off today.
The referees were specifically instructed to make sure the center gets a free shot. They would exclude the player who comes back to crash as soon as the center gets a hold of the ball.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby fogofsport » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:23 am

Who is responsible for these interpretations?


Christopher Ramsey

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby Nohorsepolo » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:43 pm

What an absolute joke the 10u championship game was today. Kids, coaches, refs, parents not knowing what was going on. Kids getting excluded or not getting excluded for crashing on set. Refs having to determine possession and kids having to determine possession in a split second. USA water polo and the refs should be ashamed of themselves. I'm sure if the money train did not come from USA polo the refs would refuse to play by these rules. To even think that changing the technical aspect of the rule on Thursday before the start of jos is stupid. The kids have played with the new rules for months crashing on set and for USA water polo to change the interpretation of the rule was an absolute joke. You want to grow water polo keep consistent rules and inforce them well you want to shrink water polo change the rules ever week. Kids, coaches, refs, pArents will not participate. Very simple. USA water polo owes every player who got excluded from the games a big sorry for failing to grow the sport. If you have time watch the video of the game you will be confused when it's over. USA water polo gets a d- this year. Let's start a new consistent league.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby Unknown » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:27 pm

The championship game was the most confusing game I have seen at any level. It was truly an embarrassment for the sport.
Hats off to both coaches who kept their cool and kids who fought till the end even though no one knew whether next call will be exclusion, foul or nothing. Shame on John Abdou for springing this on the everyone envolved A DAY before the competition.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby PlayLikeAGirl » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:45 am

Hi All,

The rule regarding crashing was pretty clear when USAWP released the new rules in the spring. It was further clarified when USAWP released the FAQs for the rules later on.

From the USAWP Rule Modifications:

2. Teams must play a press defense in their own defensive half of the field of play. Once all of an attacking team’s players are inside their offensive 9 meter line (cones, preferably green, will mark this area) a defensive player must be within a meter of their opponent maintaining a one on one defensive position at all times. It is acceptable for a player to foul and drop, but once the ball is live to shoot they must go back out to them. Players have the ability to crash on the ball once it is in the air.

When the center player gets the ball, meaning it is in their possession, the ball is live to shoot and man to man defense must be played. The ball can be crashed on from anywhere, but once it is in possession (live to shoot) then the defense must return to the original; player. A floating ball with no possession may be stolen.

From the USAWP FAQs:

2 – Can athletes still “crash” or “drop” and help with two-meter defense?
Once the ball is the air, athletes are free to “crash” “drop” or play help defense on any athlete in the pool. Once the ball is in clear offensive possession, athletes must press players within the 9-meter cone.

3 – Can athletes Foul and Drop?
Athletes can use the “Foul and Drop” defensive tactic but must re-press their player once the ball is live to shoot.


Clarified in the Spring.



The issue that I see is not that the rules have changed - the rules and the clarification have been the same since Spring. The issue is that they were being completely enforced for the first time. Had USAWP instituted the rules in the Fall, there would have been an entire season to adapt to the changes for all involved (refs, players, and coaches). Instead, the process was expedited with some tournaments (CalCup since it had started before the rules were put into place) using the old rules and other tournaments following the new rules but without the benefit of the refs having had time to work out how to make the calls. One great example of this is that JOs was the first time that the back court ref stood on the outside or inside of the nine meter to cone to signify where the players were. The only problem was that sometimes the ref forgot to do this, highlighting the lack of consistency among the officials.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby oldtimer » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:05 pm

All of the rationalizations are, in fact, simply rationalizations in my opinion. If the rules were not being enforced correctly until one day before JO finals, then requiring all referees to suddenly enforce them IS changing the rules the day before the tournament. I seriously doubt that many players at any age read the rulebook and design their own style of play based upon that - they base it upon how their coaches teach them, and how the referees call the games they play throughout the season. To suggest that everyone should have known about this interpretation months ago is absolutely ludicrous.

There was a discussion earlier about the meaning of the term 'live', with many - including referees - insisting that 'live' meant 'in play'. I tried to point out that if the meaning was in=play that there would be zero reason to drop. As soon as a foul occurs, a player might start to crash - but all that is required is to touch the ball by the attacker, then let go and the drop must be abandoned. The *only* thing accomplished by dropping in that case would be to allow the easy pass into center. The interpretation that was published laid that potential problem to rest.

This interpretation has a similar negative effect. The purpose of a drop is two-fold - to try and prevent a pass in, but if it does manage to get in, it is intended to force the center to make a quick shot or pass so that the probability of scoring is lower. If a center knows that as soon as he/she touches the ball there is no need to rush - he/she will be taught to not react to the drop/crash. In fact, simply getting possession in center at the last minute when someone is crashing would actually be a benefit - so perimeter players would be encouraged to make risky passes in order to 'earn' an exclusion.

So, in the end, the rules interpretation seems to encourage the teaching of bad habits at an early age, despite the stated intent to teach better habits.

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Re: New 10u rule day before Jo

Postby Nohorsepolo » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:26 pm

Bottom line is the rule is totally stupid and was not very thought out like most of what USA water polo does. Player crashes on set pass. Set fumbles ball ok to take. Set looks like he has possession exclusion on defense all under a split second. Sorry but the refs are not that good. So their random guess on weather the player has possession changes the outcome of the game. So USA water polo decided they want to monkey with the results by in forcing a rule differently the day of an event. Why ? What's their motivation.?? It turned a national championship into a joke for coaches, refs, and the kids. Are they trying to put the finger on people showing that they are the big dog and listen to us? Put an asterisk next to the results stating " rules interpretation created havoc and affected results". Way to roll USA water polo and Mr. Ramsey. Maybe he should watch the games and decide if it was good and post here or is he still counting the money from last weekend.

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