Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

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SwimCoach
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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby SwimCoach » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:32 pm

2plyBathingSuit wrote:I don't use the descriptive "major letdown" to describe shootouts in the medal games...I call it a "travesty".


I was just about to write something similar. Important games should never be decided by a shootout. Either go to two shortened overtime periods and then sudden death, or, if time and/or fatigue is a great concern, just go directly to a golden goal situation.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby retiredguy » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:07 am

Love the format overall, but totally agree with Rb on the seeding. Really hard for teams from zones outside the major 3 to move up if you get seeded something like 20 through 30. Your second game is against a top 5 team. Almost impossible to get into the top 12 on day 1, then you have to battle through 3 really hard games on day 2, which basically gives those top 8 teams a huge advantage.

Obviously, the most talented teams will always find a way to win despite the seeding but the seedings tend to impact the tournament in a major way.

Having a committee review the seedings and results from other major tourneys would help (Kap7 International, Futures, SD Cup, etc).

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby new2polo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:50 am

I think the format works...

But to end a year of work in a shootout seems anticlimactic.

Let the kids play !, follow the CIF rules, it works really well, it's exciting and at the end of the game both teams feel like the team that deserved it won..

I understand that before finals day, overtime games would kill the schedule.. Im only suggesting this for the finals for the medal contenders.

thoughts..

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby BayBoy » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:19 am

RB and Retired are absolutely correct that the seeding needs to be tweaked. And it’s not only tough on the outside zones. It’s unpredictable and can be unfair as well for top seeds. Look at the 16s. Two years ago the Greenwich 14s finished 7th in their ‘up’ year, ahead of SD Shores and La Jolla. This year both La Jolla and SD Shores were on the board’s top ten. Yet they ran into a 27 ranked Greenwich team on Day One that beat them both, and then won the PV Lamo group the next day. Some mix of two year and one year performance would help level the tremendous advantage of an older team in its ‘up’ year that lacks depth to perform in its down. Or a short tourney as suggested. At the highest level it matters less, but still I thought SoCal Black would make the championship this year because this specific group has been crushing it since age 11.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby hoosierborn » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:59 pm

BayBoy wrote:RB and Retired are absolutely correct that the seeding needs to be tweaked. And it’s not only tough on the outside zones. It’s unpredictable and can be unfair as well for top seeds. Look at the 16s. Two years ago the Greenwich 14s finished 7th in their ‘up’ year, ahead of SD Shores and La Jolla. This year both La Jolla and SD Shores were on the board’s top ten. Yet they ran into a 27 ranked Greenwich team on Day One that beat them both, and then won the PV Lamo group the next day. Some mix of two year and one year performance would help level the tremendous advantage of an older team in its ‘up’ year that lacks depth to perform in its down. Or a short tourney as suggested. At the highest level it matters less, but still I thought SoCal Black would make the championship this year because this specific group has been crushing it since age 11.


The SoCal Black team had only 3 graduating seniors.
They finished 7th in 2017 as well.
Should be in the mix for a medal next year, with the bulk of the team returning.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby McKlintock » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:11 pm

There is no perfect way to seed the tournament, especially with the increase in foreign players coming over only for the summer and hs seniors finding new teams just for JOs. In 16s, SD Shores was never going to win this tournament and finished about where I would've expected them to finish overall, even with the difficult initial placement with a very good Greenwich team that was better than their seed. SoCal was seeded first, lost on day 2 to Vanguard because Vanguard was better than their seed (9th), but still found a way to win the tournament. Sure, it was more difficult for them to win it, but they found a way.

I concur with someone's earlier comment on some great polo still being played on day 4. The stands were packed for the 16 and 18 championship games and the crowds were loud.

Really great to see Greenwich perform so well in several age groups!

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby FrozenDad » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:46 pm

As the father of one of "pale boys" teams from Greenwich, one thing that folks constantly asked me was, 'how is Greenwich doing so well?" Objectively speaking, we shouldn't be competitive given how small the pool (pun intended) of athletes our club is able to draw from. While there are a number of obvious reasons, including a wonderful coaching staff and children that are trying as hard as they possibly could, one thing that folks might consider is listening to a Tony Azevedo's pod cast where he talks about how in Europe children's teams don't play so many games. As a result, coaches have a lot more time to work on fundamentals and to fix things that the children are doing wrong; his point being that it when you are playing a game you are trying to win and therefore it is hard to take a step back and focus on doing it the right way rather than on winning the game. Greenwich plays very few competitive games in a season--something that I had previously thought was a disadvantage--but perhaps it is just the opposite. In any case, it is always a joy to be able to leave the indoor pool and have our children play against such outstanding competition.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby SkipShot101 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:43 pm

FrozenDad wrote:As the father of one of "pale boys" teams from Greenwich, one thing that folks constantly asked me was, 'how is Greenwich doing so well?" Objectively speaking, we shouldn't be competitive given how small the pool (pun intended) of athletes our club is able to draw from. While there are a number of obvious reasons, including a wonderful coaching staff and children that are trying as hard as they possibly could, one thing that folks might consider is listening to a Tony Azevedo's pod cast where he talks about how in Europe children's teams don't play so many games. As a result, coaches have a lot more time to work on fundamentals and to fix things that the children are doing wrong; his point being that it when you are playing a game you are trying to win and therefore it is hard to take a step back and focus on doing it the right way rather than on winning the game. Greenwich plays very few competitive games in a season--something that I had previously thought was a disadvantage--but perhaps it is just the opposite. In any case, it is always a joy to be able to leave the indoor pool and have our children play against such outstanding competition.


Ummm...Doesn't Greenwich basically pool kids from the entire eastern seaboard, excluding Florida?!?

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby steveblum » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:13 am

No it doesn’t. The majority comes from Greenwich, with a couple of kids coming from the neighboring New York towns. Greenwich Aquatics is successful because it is a well run program that trains hard.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby steveblum » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:32 am

They are all local boys

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby retiredguy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:41 am

I was also wondering if Greenwich actually benefits from being the one of only a few clubs on the Eastern seaboard.

California clubs are around the corner and players will switch on a dime of a different club offers more playing time. The talent is very spread out among 100+ clubs in California.

The benefit for Greenwich is you see some talented kids and then you get to have them all under your roof (indoor pool pun intended) from age 8-18. I’m gonna guess that even though they don’t play as many competitive games, there is a lot of scrimmaging going on with older groups. While I agree with Tony that fundamentals can be perfected in this environment, it is really hard to develop game sense and strategy without the games.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby Sunny » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:16 pm

Re: the topic of shootouts, I happen to like them. They’re super exciting to win, can be exciting to watch (goalie block?!), and frankly, to lose in a shootout is honestly no worse than losing in sudden death/golden goal. Or even OT, for that matter. You lost. It doesn’t feel good however it happens. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Hopefully you played as well as you could, gave it your best effort, and left it all in the pool. Nothing to be ashamed of or disappointed in, although it stings at the time.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby FrozenDad » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:40 pm

SkipShot101 wrote:
FrozenDad wrote:As the father of one of "pale boys" teams from Greenwich, one thing that folks constantly asked me was, 'how is Greenwich doing so well?" Objectively speaking, we shouldn't be competitive given how small the pool (pun intended) of athletes our club is able to draw from. While there are a number of obvious reasons, including a wonderful coaching staff and children that are trying as hard as they possibly could, one thing that folks might consider is listening to a Tony Azevedo's pod cast where he talks about how in Europe children's teams don't play so many games. As a result, coaches have a lot more time to work on fundamentals and to fix things that the children are doing wrong; his point being that it when you are playing a game you are trying to win and therefore it is hard to take a step back and focus on doing it the right way rather than on winning the game. Greenwich plays very few competitive games in a season--something that I had previously thought was a disadvantage--but perhaps it is just the opposite. In any case, it is always a joy to be able to leave the indoor pool and have our children play against such outstanding competition.


Ummm...Doesn't Greenwich basically pool kids from the entire eastern seaboard, excluding Florida?!?


Nope. The kids are very much home grown and I would guess that 90% or more live in town.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby SkipShot101 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:00 pm

FrozenDad wrote:
SkipShot101 wrote:
FrozenDad wrote:As the father of one of "pale boys" teams from Greenwich, one thing that folks constantly asked me was, 'how is Greenwich doing so well?" Objectively speaking, we shouldn't be competitive given how small the pool (pun intended) of athletes our club is able to draw from. While there are a number of obvious reasons, including a wonderful coaching staff and children that are trying as hard as they possibly could, one thing that folks might consider is listening to a Tony Azevedo's pod cast where he talks about how in Europe children's teams don't play so many games. As a result, coaches have a lot more time to work on fundamentals and to fix things that the children are doing wrong; his point being that it when you are playing a game you are trying to win and therefore it is hard to take a step back and focus on doing it the right way rather than on winning the game. Greenwich plays very few competitive games in a season--something that I had previously thought was a disadvantage--but perhaps it is just the opposite. In any case, it is always a joy to be able to leave the indoor pool and have our children play against such outstanding competition.


Ummm...Doesn't Greenwich basically pool kids from the entire eastern seaboard, excluding Florida?!?


Nope. The kids are very much home grown and I would guess that 90% or more live in town.


Oh. I talked to a Greenwich parent at length in 2018 at jos and they told a different story. He said that they pull kids from all over the northeastern states. He said they will usually all get together once or twice to meet each other and train. And sometimes they have a couple of kids that live really far away that only show up with the team at quals or jos and they meet them for the first time there.

The way he was describing it sounded a lot like the old Annapolis team that wolf wigo and his friends played on.

So I'm not sure if I was getting bad information from that parent or from you now.

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Re: Things to consider after a JO’s as expected

Postby mwb2001 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:57 am

At least looking at Greenwich’s 16 and 18u roster seems like all those kids pretty much go to either Brunswick or Greenwich high so I believe it when I hear they’re mostly home grown

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