2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Girls High School Competition
polofan4ever
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby polofan4ever » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:07 pm

As a polo parent, I am shocked that ANY parent would go this far. Your post has spread like wild fire through the water polo community. Mission Accomplished!!! All the athletes on our team and probably yours, are talking about it. Way to really pump up your girls before their biggest game ever in hs!!! You should be ashamed of yourself and I am truly embarrassed by your actions, as you should be too. You owe that young lady and her family an apology!!! This is just FN WRONG!!!!!!!

polomaman
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby polomaman » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:45 pm

We, at El Toro know who this poster is. Cannot wait ' til his blameless kids graduate.

jlweath
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby jlweath » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:55 pm

I to want to thank Dan for his heart warming article on a brother and sister and the unique experience and opportunity they are going to have. Dan has been a proponent of water polo for many years and we need more positive testimonials and articles on water polo. Water polo needs more of these types of articles to send a positive message to those that are in water polo as well as those that are not familiar with water polo. Good luck to them both.

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dadonthedeck
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby dadonthedeck » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:09 am

polopoloandmorepolo wrote:The real parents of oc water polo...... Pass the popcorn

Yep.

SwimCoach
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby SwimCoach » Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:55 am

Congrats to the El Toro Girls team for a hard fought 5-4 win. San Clemente played a great game as well and should be proud of their accomplishments this season. Good job girls!

SC was leading 4-3 in the 4th when they were called for calling an illegal time out. ET made the 5 meter shot to tie the game. For anyone else who saw the infraction, what were your thoughts? I had flashbacks of Krikorian's snafu in the last Olympics.

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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby SCPolo7 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:09 am

Interesting point. Similar situation happened at last last year - 2014 D2 finals SM vs MD.
- SM coach called a time out and was challenged by the MD coach for calling without possession.
- After a 15+ minutes of review and discussion, the possession was awarded to MD with the conclusion of SM did not have possession when time out was called.
- But NO penalty was awarded to MD according to CIF rules. SM lost one time out. But if SM had no time out to lose, then penalty will be awarded to MD.
- So CIF rules are different from FINA in this situation.
That brings my questions:
1. Did the CIF rules changed since 2014 or
2. Did SC called time out when they did not have any more or
3. SC got screwed by the ref?

There was a thread following last year's incidence and someone posted the explanation to this CIF ruling.
In any case, congrats to El Toro and it was a great match.

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Allen Lorentzen
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby Allen Lorentzen » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:12 pm

SECTION 6 TIME-OUT CALLED WHEN NEITHER TEAM HAS POSSESSION OF THE BALL
If a team calls for a time-out when neither team has possession of the ball, the referee shall blow the whistle, award a penalty throw to the team that did not call the time-out and remove the longest time-out available from the team that called the time-out improperly.


I underlined the portion highlighted in the rule book as a change for this year. I was not there but believe this is the applicable portion based on what I've heard from others - that the ball was in the air at the time of the coach operating the air horn for a timeout, interpreted as neither team having possession of the ball...

Doru Roll
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby Doru Roll » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:00 pm

Allen Lorentzen wrote:
SECTION 6 TIME-OUT CALLED WHEN NEITHER TEAM HAS POSSESSION OF THE BALL
If a team calls for a time-out when neither team has possession of the ball, the referee shall blow the whistle, award a penalty throw to the team that did not call the time-out and remove the longest time-out available from the team that called the time-out improperly.


I underlined the portion highlighted in the rule book as a change for this year. I was not there but believe this is the applicable portion based on what I've heard from others - that the ball was in the air at the time of the coach operating the air horn for a timeout, interpreted as neither team having possession of the ball...

The interpretation (at least the way it was explained to me) is: neither team has possession when: 1. The ball rebounds after a shot on goal and before any player touches it; 2. The ball is passed into open water more than arm's reach from the intended recipient and a defender is also within reach, or 3: Two players are actively competing for possession but neither has control (the Adam Krikorian situation).

I wasn't there but I suspect that the TO was called while the ball was in the air, but when it landed it was too far from the attacker to gain and maintain possession. If so, then the call was correct (see 2. above).

sidelineview
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby sidelineview » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:07 pm

SCPolo7 wrote:Interesting point. Similar situation happened at last last year - 2014 D2 finals SM vs MD.
- SM coach called a time out and was challenged by the MD coach for calling without possession.
- After a 15+ minutes of review and discussion, the possession was awarded to MD with the conclusion of SM did not have possession when time out was called.
- But NO penalty was awarded to MD according to CIF rules. SM lost one time out. But if SM had no time out to lose, then penalty will be awarded to MD.
- So CIF rules are different from FINA in this situation.
That brings my questions:
1. Did the CIF rules changed since 2014 or
2. Did SC called time out when they did not have any more or
3. SC got screwed by the ref?

There was a thread following last year's incidence and someone posted the explanation to this CIF ruling.
In any case, congrats to El Toro and it was a great match.


To follow up Alan's post and to answer your question - yes, the timeout rules were updated this year. The change: a Penalty Throw is awarded when either team calls a timeout when not in possession of the ball.

BTW - the rules are NFHS (National Federation of High Schools), not CIF. CIF sections may provide supplemental penalties (e.g., number of games suspended for a Red Card) or provide rules for transfers, playoff selection/play, etc. ... but NFHS provides the playing rules for all states.

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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby aatdb » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:10 pm

It is a terrible rule. A terrible way to lose a title. We should go back to it simply being a turnover, assuming the team that called the timeout still had one to use. I was there watching, and I am not sure what exactly happened. Yes, the horn for the timeout did sound when the ball was not in possession of either team. But who blew the horn? Was it the head coach? Or did the head coach verbally call for the timeout when he had possession, but a different person who actually blew the horn react late? I don't know the answers to these questions--I was on the table side of the pool--but I'd be interested in the answers.

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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby wpgeek » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:32 pm

I would also like to know more, as I was not there and I was at the 2014 SM/MD and I for one thought SM had position when the time out was "originally" called by the coach and not when the ref acknowledged it - there was a time lag. Though way for SC who was leading then 4-3 with a little over a minute left in the 4th to lose.

sidelineview
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby sidelineview » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:19 pm

Timeout/possession is judged at the moment the timeout is called by the coach/horn, not when the referee reacts to the request and whistles the timeout. In other words, a legal timeout maybe called by team/coach in possession of the ball, but the referee's whistle reaction maybe after the ball is in the air. This happens quite frequently after a team has been awarded a 6:5 possession.

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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby jinvta » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:41 pm

aatdb wrote:It is a terrible rule. A terrible way to lose a title. We should go back to it simply being a turnover, assuming the team that called the timeout still had one to use. I was there watching, and I am not sure what exactly happened. Yes, the horn for the timeout did sound when the ball was not in possession of either team. But who blew the horn? Was it the head coach? Or did the head coach verbally call for the timeout when he had possession, but a different person who actually blew the horn react late? I don't know the answers to these questions--I was on the table side of the pool--but I'd be interested in the answers.


I think this is a good rule change. How can the penalty for taking an illegal timeout be just losing possession and a timeout if you don't even have possession in the first place? I feel that changing the rule closed a loophole that allowed coaches to call a suspect timeout when they knew they didn't really have possession. They could claim ignorance and all they lost was a timeout that they had no right to take in the first place, while possibly shutting down a scoring opportunity for the opponent. I don't see that as being fair at all.

I wasn't at the game, but it sounds like it was one of the best games of the day, along with D3 Arroyo Grande vs King 6-4 and D5 Los Altos vs Palm Desert 8-7.

aatdb
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby aatdb » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:57 pm

sidelineview wrote:Timeout/possession is judged at the moment the timeout is called by the coach/horn, not when the referee reacts to the request and whistles the timeout. In other words, a legal timeout maybe called by team/coach in possession of the ball, but the referee's whistle reaction maybe after the ball is in the air. This happens quite frequently after a team has been awarded a 6:5 possession.


Of course, but my questions are still relevant. Does someone know who actually blew the horn? Head coach? Assistant?

I do think part of the problem is the reality that most high school coaches, probably college coaches too, don't use an airhorn very often. I am not sure what happened, but that might have been the issue. Did the head coach start verbally calling for the timeout when his team had possession? Did he then remember the horn and push the button? Again, I don't know and it can't change the outcome, but I am curious. If that did happen, maybe CIF should rethink having the horns. If it returned to the coach yelling for a timeout, trust me they will find a way to get the attention of the official.

I don't know the San Clemente coach and am not a SC supporter one way or another, but I find it very unlikely the guy decided to call the timeout at the moment his team lost possession. I think the odds are pretty high he made the decision to call for a timeout and was verbally asking for it before the airhorn was blown.

lvthegame
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Re: 2014-2015 CIF-SS Girls Division 2

Postby lvthegame » Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:47 pm

I am totally for the air horn. At the end of a close game, the crowd is super-loud, and the refs are fully focused on the field of play. A good example was last boys' season Newport-Agoura boys playoff game, Newport ahead by one, 20 secs left, Agoura drew an exclusion, Agoura coach called for a timeout for at least 15 seconds and didn't get it. Remember, he's not allowed past the five during play. Game over. For another thread someday....

I might add another good girls' title game was the Royal/Riverside Poly game in D4. It was closer than the score might indicate. Riverside Poly showed a lot by coming back to tie it in the third 6-6 after being down 4-0 early. Very exciting!

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