Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

USA Water Polo Olympic Development Program
Polo(nohorse)
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby Polo(nohorse) » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:52 pm

Maybe it’s not all fixed but to call it unbiased is far from accurate. Players doing well in college doesn’t mean ODP did anything for them. You could pick many more college players who did better without any participation in ODP. Outcome doesn’t prove causality.

Saveharts
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby Saveharts » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:04 pm

Polo(nohorse) wrote:Maybe it’s not all fixed but to call it unbiased is far from accurate. Players doing well in college doesn’t mean ODP did anything for them. You could pick many more college players who did better without any participation in ODP. Outcome doesn’t prove causality.



100% an athlete needs an ‘in’. With the number of kids participating in the first round, without some sort of heads up to one of the coaches an athlete will not be chosen. As the process proceeds it becomes not only players with an ‘in’, but also money. So many hugely talented players will be overlooked because of where they live, the club and high school they attend, and the inability to raise funds for ODP progression. Can’t afford a private elite water polo high school, or afford to live in Newport Beach, Huntington Beach, play for a D3 or below high school because that’s where you live, but you’re wicked talented? You have zero chance. Water Polo is a pay to play sport. This is a big reason why this country is not competitive with the rest of the water polo world. The kids who can afford the luxury aren’t always the best this country can and does develop.

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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby SwimCoach » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:42 pm

Saveharts wrote:This is a big reason why this country is not competitive with the rest of the water polo world. The kids who can afford the luxury aren’t always the best this country can and does develop.


Not that I disagree with all that you are saying, but how do you explain the success of the Women's SNT then?

Justafan22
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby Justafan22 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:44 pm

SwimCoach wrote:
Saveharts wrote:This is a big reason why this country is not competitive with the rest of the water polo world. The kids who can afford the luxury aren’t always the best this country can and does develop.


Not that I disagree with all that you are saying, but how do you explain the success of the Women's SNT then?


Well Mr SwimCoach, that would be thanks to the ODP program of course :lol:

oldtimer
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby oldtimer » Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:53 am

I am quite sure that many on here know ODP coaches and know athletes that have been involved with ODP. While it is a fun, and even motivating, experience for the athletes, I wouldn't say it is 'developmental' other than the opportunity to play in higher level competitions than they normally would (this does not apply to those athletes from SoPac, Coastal and Pacific Zones that are on the 'A' teams for top clubs - they already get all the development they can handle). On the other hand, it is great for parent bragging rights and is a good source of revenue for USAWP (this can be said for JOs as well).

Clearly USAWP needs a pipeline, just as a HS coach needs a pipeline to consistently field a competitive team at the top division, and ODP is it. Since HS and Club coaches are also ODP coaches, there is obviously going to be some amount of selection bias. In addition, there are going to be some selection guidelines that prevent some talented athletes from getting a real opportunity - such as body size, personal connections, etc. This is how our political/economic system work so that shouldn't be a surprise. While I have my own concerns about the program, I certainly don't have enough experience or knowledge to recommend how it might be changed.

WRT the Women's National Team, I would suggest that one advantage the US has had is our Title IX rule and related political mentality. It seems to me that many of our Women's teams perform better at those sports that have not been considered 'traditional' women's sports internationally because money and time has been put into giving opportunities to females from a young age.. We will just have to wait and see if the rest of the world catches up as other countries put more focus on developing female athletes outside of their traditional roles.

Justafan22
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby Justafan22 » Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:31 pm

oldtimer wrote:I am quite sure that many on here know ODP coaches and know athletes that have been involved with ODP. While it is a fun, and even motivating, experience for the athletes, I wouldn't say it is 'developmental' other than the opportunity to play in higher level competitions than they normally would (this does not apply to those athletes from SoPac, Coastal and Pacific Zones that are on the 'A' teams for top clubs - they already get all the development they can handle). On the other hand, it is great for parent bragging rights and is a good source of revenue for USAWP (this can be said for JOs as well).

Clearly USAWP needs a pipeline, just as a HS coach needs a pipeline to consistently field a competitive team at the top division, and ODP is it. Since HS and Club coaches are also ODP coaches, there is obviously going to be some amount of selection bias. In addition, there are going to be some selection guidelines that prevent some talented athletes from getting a real opportunity - such as body size, personal connections, etc. This is how our political/economic system work so that shouldn't be a surprise. While I have my own concerns about the program, I certainly don't have enough experience or knowledge to recommend how it might be changed.

WRT the Women's National Team, I would suggest that one advantage the US has had is our Title IX rule and related political mentality. It seems to me that many of our Women's teams perform better at those sports that have not been considered 'traditional' women's sports internationally because money and time has been put into giving opportunities to females from a young age.. We will just have to wait and see if the rest of the world catches up as other countries put more focus on developing female athletes outside of their traditional roles.


I very much agree with you, oldtimer, on your last paragraph. For example, for years women's soccer, at any Olympics or world championships/world cup, you could pretty much predict that it was going to be USA vs Canada in the finals. Canada as the US, also pushes women's sports and equal opportunities for women. Europe and South America were much stronger in men's soccer, but women were not really supported. It was a 'man's sport", but now those countries have pushed the hard, and they have caught up, or are catching up. Same thing is still happening in Hockey for example. On the men's side , the Europeans have pretty much caught up, a few years back, but the women's was almost always, and still is, USA vs Canada, in any international competition, but now European women's teams, are pushing hard into this" 'man's sport" and we are starting to see their results.

For now, it's hard to argue againts the USAWP women's model, for the making of the USA team. look at the results!!!!

h20polo12345
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby h20polo12345 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:54 am

Saveharts wrote:
Polo(nohorse) wrote:Maybe it’s not all fixed but to call it unbiased is far from accurate. Players doing well in college doesn’t mean ODP did anything for them. You could pick many more college players who did better without any participation in ODP. Outcome doesn’t prove causality.



100% an athlete needs an ‘in’. With the number of kids participating in the first round, without some sort of heads up to one of the coaches an athlete will not be chosen. As the process proceeds it becomes not only players with an ‘in’, but also money. So many hugely talented players will be overlooked because of where they live, the club and high school they attend, and the inability to raise funds for ODP progression. Can’t afford a private elite water polo high school, or afford to live in Newport Beach, Huntington Beach, play for a D3 or below high school because that’s where you live, but you’re wicked talented? You have zero chance. Water Polo is a pay to play sport. This is a big reason why this country is not competitive with the rest of the water polo world. The kids who can afford the luxury aren’t always the best this country can and does develop.


It is the same athletes picked and in addition, if you look at the donations made to USA Water Polo, there is a correlation between who donates and the athletes picked. There is also a correlation between the high school coach involved and the athletes that are picked. The coach ends up picking his own players and his player's buddies. It also seems they are picking a lot more private school athletes too. Does this mean your athlete shouldn't do ODP? My answer to my athlete has been "welcome to the real world." Get used to it. There will always be people who have more money, more connections, and an "in." Are you going to let this stop you from trying to play at the highest level? You may never get picked for a trip because we don't have the connections but you can still learn a lot.

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stickman
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby stickman » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:37 pm

[quote="h20polo12345"][quote="Saveharts"][quote="Polo(nohorse)"]Maybe it’s not all fixed but to call it unbiased is far from accurate. Players doing well in college doesn’t mean ODP did anything for them. You could pick many more college players who did better without any participation in ODP. Outcome doesn’t prove causality.[/quote]


100% an athlete needs an ‘in’. With the number of kids participating in the first round, without some sort of heads up to one of the coaches an athlete will not be chosen. As the process proceeds it becomes not only players with an ‘in’, but also money. So many hugely talented players will be overlooked because of where they live, the club and high school they attend, and the inability to raise funds for ODP progression. Can’t afford a private elite water polo high school, or afford to live in Newport Beach, Huntington Beach, play for a D3 or below high school because that’s where you live, but you’re wicked talented? You have zero chance. Water Polo is a pay to play sport. This is a big reason why this country is not competitive with the rest of the water polo world. The kids who can afford the luxury aren’t always the best this country can and does develop.[/quote]

It is the same athletes picked and in addition, if you look at the donations made to USA Water Polo, there is a correlation between who donates and the athletes picked. There is also a correlation between the high school coach involved and the athletes that are picked. The coach ends up picking his own players and his player's buddies. It also seems they are picking a lot more private school athletes too. Does this mean your athlete shouldn't do ODP? My answer to my athlete has been "welcome to the real world." Get used to it. There will always be people who have more money, more connections, and an "in." Are you going to let this stop you from trying to play at the highest level? You may never get picked for a trip because we don't have the connections but you can still learn a lot.[/quote]

Interesting approach…I took a different rout:

Instead of just telling my kids to ‘Get used to it,’ I taught them what my parents taught me…how to have more money, more connections, and how to become the ‘in.’

By the way…where do you find the list of donators to USA water polo? Is this available on line, can you share a link? Both my kids benefitted and traveled with ODP teams when they played, but outside of annual dues I never donated a dime. Maybe my wife was secretly giving money? I’d like to check that donators list to see if what you say is correct.

Justafan22
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby Justafan22 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:12 am

Stockman I need to have a way to get a hold of you outside of this forum
How can we do that

h20polo12345
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby h20polo12345 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:22 pm

stickman wrote:
h20polo12345 wrote:
Saveharts wrote:
Polo(nohorse) wrote:Maybe it’s not all fixed but to call it unbiased is far from accurate. Players doing well in college doesn’t mean ODP did anything for them. You could pick many more college players who did better without any participation in ODP. Outcome doesn’t prove causality.



100% an athlete needs an ‘in’. With the number of kids participating in the first round, without some sort of heads up to one of the coaches an athlete will not be chosen. As the process proceeds it becomes not only players with an ‘in’, but also money. So many hugely talented players will be overlooked because of where they live, the club and high school they attend, and the inability to raise funds for ODP progression. Can’t afford a private elite water polo high school, or afford to live in Newport Beach, Huntington Beach, play for a D3 or below high school because that’s where you live, but you’re wicked talented? You have zero chance. Water Polo is a pay to play sport. This is a big reason why this country is not competitive with the rest of the water polo world. The kids who can afford the luxury aren’t always the best this country can and does develop.


It is the same athletes picked and in addition, if you look at the donations made to USA Water Polo, there is a correlation between who donates and the athletes picked. There is also a correlation between the high school coach involved and the athletes that are picked. The coach ends up picking his own players and his player's buddies. It also seems they are picking a lot more private school athletes too. Does this mean your athlete shouldn't do ODP? My answer to my athlete has been "welcome to the real world." Get used to it. There will always be people who have more money, more connections, and an "in." Are you going to let this stop you from trying to play at the highest level? You may never get picked for a trip because we don't have the connections but you can still learn a lot.


Interesting approach…I took a different rout:

Instead of just telling my kids to ‘Get used to it,’ I taught them what my parents taught me…how to have more money, more connections, and how to become the ‘in.’

By the way…where do you find the list of donators to USA water polo? Is this available on line, can you share a link? Both my kids benefitted and traveled with ODP teams when they played, but outside of annual dues I never donated a dime. Maybe my wife was secretly giving money? I’d like to check that donators list to see if what you say is correct.


The list of donors is on USA Water Polo under the Give Back tab and clicking on "Our Donors." Someone compared it two years ago to the athletes who made the National Team Rosters and there was a direct correlation between donations and the roster selection. I looked at the list after the person who compared the list told me about it and there was a correlation. Pay to play exists everywhere and parents have called ODP "OD FEE" for years.

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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby WaPoSaD » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 pm

Correlation is not causation. To take but one example, once you’re on the national team, you’re required to “fundraise” $1000+, and a nontrivial amount of those funds comes (shockingly, I know) from the parents of the kid — assuming no rich grandparents, etc. As a result, the parents show up as donors, and so if the kid makes the national team the next year — hardly an unusual or paid-for result — observers will see lots of “donor” kids getting selected. One follows the other, yeah, but it’s backwards; selection leads to being on the donor list, not the other way around. (Plus, once you donate once, trust me, USA Water Polo markets the heck out of you to get more; sometimes, successfully.)

I’d be very surprised if the coaches — who are the ones who select the teams — even know whether and/or in what amount the kids in the pool (or their parents) have contributed to USA Water Polo. Much less, I suspect, would the coaches care, or have it affect their decision as to which players to select.

Now, as for well-known players having a somewhat easier time being selected, yeah, I’ll buy that. If a player who the coach knows to be good (has seen him or her play before, etc.) has a bad day in tryouts, it’s easier to give that less weight than if the same thing happens to someone you’ve never seen or heard of before. The nature of the beast, unfortunately.

PoloParentfor2
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby PoloParentfor2 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:15 pm

The Coaches may not be aware of the donations to USAWP - but those that are from the Club sector are most certainly influenced by donations to their Clubs or the White Envelopes they receive personally. The ODP process should not allow Club Coaches in the selection process - but eliminating corruption is a tall order.

Anyhow - I can’t seem to find the structure for the age brackets this year. Did we miss it? Will the lingering 2003’s and 2004’s (graduating Seniors) be ‘trying out’ for All-Star Teams or will 2004’s be combined with the 2005 boys for Youth this year?

h20polo12345
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby h20polo12345 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:28 pm

WaPoSaD wrote:Correlation is not causation. To take but one example, once you’re on the national team, you’re required to “fundraise” $1000+, and a nontrivial amount of those funds comes (shockingly, I know) from the parents of the kid — assuming no rich grandparents, etc. As a result, the parents show up as donors, and so if the kid makes the national team the next year — hardly an unusual or paid-for result — observers will see lots of “donor” kids getting selected. One follows the other, yeah, but it’s backwards; selection leads to being on the donor list, not the other way around. (Plus, once you donate once, trust me, USA Water Polo markets the heck out of you to get more; sometimes, successfully.)

I’d be very surprised if the coaches — who are the ones who select the teams — even know whether and/or in what amount the kids in the pool (or their parents) have contributed to USA Water Polo. Much less, I suspect, would the coaches care, or have it affect their decision as to which players to select.

Now, as for well-known players having a somewhat easier time being selected, yeah, I’ll buy that. If a player who the coach knows to be good (has seen him or her play before, etc.) has a bad day in tryouts, it’s easier to give that less weight than if the same thing happens to someone you’ve never seen or heard of before. The nature of the beast, unfortunately.


Here is the issue with your argument. I have a player who has made it to the NTSC and raised money and we have never shown up on the USA Water Polo Donors lists nor have other families who made team travel camps. I don't think they count the fundraising as "donations." I believe that list is above and beyond ODP fundraising.

CPR
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby CPR » Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:17 am

[quote="h20polo12345"] I have a player who has made it to the NTSC and raised money and we have never shown up on the USA Water Polo Donors lists nor have other families who made team travel camps.[/quote]

So in one post you state there’s a correlation between the list of donors and players getting selected, but then you say YOU have a player that was selected to a travel camp and you know other families who made travel camps, without showing up on the donor list.

???
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h20polo12345
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Re: Has anyone heard anything about ODP?

Postby h20polo12345 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:26 pm

CPR wrote:
h20polo12345 wrote: I have a player who has made it to the NTSC and raised money and we have never shown up on the USA Water Polo Donors lists nor have other families who made team travel camps.


So in one post you state there’s a correlation between the list of donors and players getting selected, but then you say YOU have a player that was selected to a travel camp and you know other families who made travel camps, without showing up on the donor list.

???


My comment was in response to WaPoSaD who said "Correlation is not causation. To take but one example, once you’re on the national team, you’re required to “fundraise” $1000+, and a nontrivial amount of those funds comes (shockingly, I know) from the parents of the kid — assuming no rich grandparents, etc. As a result, the parents show up as donors, and so if the kid makes the national team the next year — hardly an unusual or paid-for result — observers will see lots of “donor” kids getting selected. One follows the other, yeah, but it’s backwards; selection leads to being on the donor list, not the other way around. (Plus, once you donate once, trust me, USA Water Polo markets the heck out of you to get more; sometimes, successfully.)".

My point is that the FUNDRAISING does not appear to show up on the DONATIONS list and furthermore when he says that they then market the heck out of those players to get more money and those players are picked again the next year it sure looks like a pay to play structure to many people. I know many families whose players were selected on a travel team, raised money (I even made a donation to their player) and they were not on the Donors list for USA Water Polo.

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