Yet another ODP screw-up

USA Water Polo Olympic Development Program
norcalpologirl
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Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby norcalpologirl » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:12 am

At the recent NTSC in Irvine a large northern California contingent of boys was put on a flight that required them to leave before the camp was over. Yet another example of US water polo's callous disregard of the best interest of the athlete. To add insult to injury, the boys who made the team were announce at the end of the camp, but the boys who were forced to leave early have received no communication whatsoever. How long do they plan on leaving these poor kids hanging? I know US polo is dominated by Southern California and every other region is an after-thought, but this is ridiculous!

BucketMan
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 8:23 am
How are you connected to water polo?: Calling out Chris Ramsey, Guy Baker and the USA WP to take immediate action after all events that occurred at the Fisher Cup 2011

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby BucketMan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:43 pm

I don't know that this was an ODP screwup. Ask yourself, did Ramsey or Baker get your $1,000 check? If yes, then ODP was an absolute success.
It's not about the kids, it's about the money.
Do you honestly think, the list of who they pick is done at the camp?
It's about money, who you know, what you donate and maybe if your kid has talent and goes to the right school or club.
If you don't know by now, then your kid isn't on the team.

KJE
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby KJE » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:12 pm

Bucketman, what is your real issue here? I've read your hateful posts all over the message board. Neither Guy Baker nor Chris Ramsey get a single dollar from ODP or the fundraising money. Every dollar is spent on ODP and National Teams, not the CEO's salary. I'm tired of this old allegation. AND, the fundraising is not an ODP thing, it's been going on since 2001. Every kid that has ever been selected to a camp has done fundraising. The ODP newsletter is posted on the website, Read it, find new things to criticize about where the money is going because it's not going in anyone's pocket.

I am still surprised that people believe that EVERY coach in the program, and in water polo is corrupt and only has a personal agenda. I'm tired of this allegation as well. If you don't understand the process or the selections, then email the coach. I'm tired of getting accused of nepotism because kids I coach make a team... God forbid if they are actually good. Are they supposed to be ignored because they play for me? If anything I tend to be harder on the kids I coach and turn a blind eye to them and don't advocate on their behalf. That is equally unfair. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I don't think the majority of the coaches are out there to screw anyone over. The coaches, kids and parents I come in contact with are pretty amazing people.

I've emailed norcalgirl. I don't know what happened with the flights, I do know that it was a huge undertaking. It's unfortunate that the only comment made was about a blunder in the departure time. If this is the negative people have to hang to to continue to hate the program, so be it. I'll also point out that there were no concussions, broken noses or incidents of any violence at any time during this weekend or at any other point in ODP. The medical staff at the trainings this weekend were outstanding.

If you hate the program and think it's a waste, great... don't participate. I look forward to getting lambasted, it's the best part of my day. Regardless, we will continue to work on it and improve it and do our best to serve the athletes and coaches who choose to participate.

floater
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby floater » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:42 pm

KJE wrote:I am still surprised that people believe that EVERY coach in the program, and in water polo is corrupt and only has a personal agenda. I'm tired of this allegation as well. If you don't understand the process or the selections, then email the coach. I'm tired of getting accused of nepotism because kids I coach make a team... God forbid if they are actually good. Are they supposed to be ignored because they play for me? If anything I tend to be harder on the kids I coach and turn a blind eye to them and don't advocate on their behalf. That is equally unfair. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I don't think the majority of the coaches are out there to screw anyone over. The coaches, kids and parents I come in contact with are pretty amazing people.
.


I agree with your statements and actually agree with that approach in the treatment of your own kids. I believe there was a movement a few years ago in establishing ODP positions to try to minimize/eliminate conflict of interest between club and ODP interest. I guess the community is too small to expect talented water polo professionals in ODP to not have any association with high schools or club water polo. I haven't heard any complaints on this topic related to the girls ODP selection process.

Backofthenet
Posts: 102
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby Backofthenet » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:01 pm

I have heard MANY good comments about this past weekend's ODP event. It is unfortunate that some player's flights were not scheduled at a time that would allow them to attend the final meeting with coaches and the announcement of the advancing players. If this is the only "issue" to arise out of the countless hours of planning, coordinating, and facilitating, then the event was a complete success.

BucketMan
Posts: 58
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How are you connected to water polo?: Calling out Chris Ramsey, Guy Baker and the USA WP to take immediate action after all events that occurred at the Fisher Cup 2011

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby BucketMan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:41 pm

KJE wrote:Bucketman, what is your real issue here? I've read your hateful posts all over the message board. Neither Guy Baker nor Chris Ramsey get a single dollar from ODP or the fundraising money. Every dollar is spent on ODP and National Teams, not the CEO's salary. I'm tired of this old allegation. AND, the fundraising is not an ODP thing, it's been going on since 2001. Every kid that has ever been selected to a camp has done fundraising. The ODP newsletter is posted on the website, Read it, find new things to criticize about where the money is going because it's not going in anyone's pocket.

I am still surprised that people believe that EVERY coach in the program, and in water polo is corrupt and only has a personal agenda. I'm tired of this allegation as well. If you don't understand the process or the selections, then email the coach. I'm tired of getting accused of nepotism because kids I coach make a team... God forbid if they are actually good. Are they supposed to be ignored because they play for me? If anything I tend to be harder on the kids I coach and turn a blind eye to them and don't advocate on their behalf. That is equally unfair. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I don't think the majority of the coaches are out there to screw anyone over. The coaches, kids and parents I come in contact with are pretty amazing people.

I've emailed norcalgirl. I don't know what happened with the flights, I do know that it was a huge undertaking. It's unfortunate that the only comment made was about a blunder in the departure time. If this is the negative people have to hang to to continue to hate the program, so be it. I'll also point out that there were no concussions, broken noses or incidents of any violence at any time during this weekend or at any other point in ODP. The medical staff at the trainings this weekend were outstanding.

If you hate the program and think it's a waste, great... don't participate. I look forward to getting lambasted, it's the best part of my day. Regardless, we will continue to work on it and improve it and do our best to serve the athletes and coaches who choose to participate.


KJE,
My posts are driven from concern about the state of water polo in the US. My comments are critical of the actions of certain players/coaches during the Fisher Cup. To date, nothing has been done nor has USA WP made any statement regarding the Fisher Cup. The only actions that Guy Baker or Chris Ramsey were interested in was the following weekend ODP Bonanza (Memorial Day Weekend) when checks would be pouring in by those hopeful parents. In 2011, there are so many more water polo players being wooed into the olympic pipeline dream and so many more families fundraising (usually paying directly out of their pocket). The fact that I critized the ODP fundraising and the fact that you are a ODP coach must have hit a soft spot. Didn't you coach the Girls' JNT last summer?

How would you feel if let's say a Women's Olympic player punched one of the Girls' JNT players in one of the exhibition games? What if one of these Olympian's who was also a girls' high school coach punched one of the girl's JNT players and caused a concussion, or a broken nose, or laughed, or criticized the referees, or got a red card and then was on the bench during a JNT game. Would this be okay? Or would you consider that no statement might make the situation go away?

Since you have taken on the task in the last year to be the spokesperson on this message board for USAWP ODP (which includes the JNT) answer this question. What if anything is being done? The players, families and fans of water polo would like to know. Why hasn't there been a statement from USAWP? Why isn't your counterpart, James Lathrop a messenger for USAWP ODP as well?

And in case you missed the June 1 home page articles, Joan Gould has also brought this issue to light as well as many water polo planet members who has voiced their concerns. I believe there are 5 pages worth of concerns and comments thus far. How many others are absolutely disgusted by the behavior exhibited at the Fisher Cup? The answer is too many. The problem is those that should care, don't give a Dam!

The Olympic Dream May Be Hazardous To Your Health by Joan Gould
Warning: Reaching for the Olympic Dream May Cause Brain Damage in the Pool.
http://www.waterpoloplanet.com/HTML_Joa ... amage.html

BTW, how's that CAL player that was injured during the Fisher Cup doing?

KJE
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby KJE » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:32 pm

I have removed my post. I was trying to make something positive out of a negative situation. Not the time. My mistake.
Last edited by KJE on Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

BucketMan
Posts: 58
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby BucketMan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:49 pm

KJE, your attitude frightens me.
KJE wrote:Unsportsmanlike behavior occurs in every area of our sport and every sport with athletes, coaches, officials and parents. It's a community effort to make change.

Let me refer you to the Code of Ethics that USAWP has for its players and coaches. (Many clubs make parents and players sign their own club code of ethics.)
Why bother having rules when there is no need to follow them because there is no punishment when you do not follow the code of ethics?
Why have referees when players don't need to listen to their calls?
Assuming the club has dealt with it behind closed doors? Who? The coach from LAWP who has his own personal behavior issues at the Fisher Cup.
The major problems seemed to occur within 3 clubs. Using the analogy of the coliseum and rock throwing - please.
One JNT Coach should be suspended and immediately removed from the JNT and Jr. Worlds.
Another Olympic player should be suspended for being red carded, leaving the deck and not returning the next day.
USAWP has the control here. Since USAWP is the governing body, USAWP needs to take a stand, otherwise whatever USAWP says is meaningless.
What about the code of ethics that all the players who were selected from the ODP Camp that will travel and sign?
Does USAWP tell them, just sign the pages, it's a formality and meaningless because we (USAWP) will not hold you accountable for your actions.

KJE, there is DANGER IN THE WATER and its because we have inept people running USAWP and you justify this because you want to keep your USAWP ODP job.
Shame on you. If you want to help. Ask Baker and Ramsey what's going on. Why would I or anyone else want to write anything on the USAWP Message Board. The USAWP Message Board was changed years ago to eliminate any form of discussion. USAWP doesn't want to respond. They just want your money. Let me refer you to Doc Hunkler's May 15th Article which documents numerous articles from the past year which shows why USAWP is in need a a Major Rehaul.
Barking Up the Wrong Tree by Doc Hunkler
Only the Board of Directors Can Do Something About the USAWP CEO!
http://www.waterpoloplanet.com/HTML_Hun ... _Tree.html

For all the good you may do with ODP, taking on the Fisher Cup fiasco is not one that will help your credability.
Maybe this is why your counterpart keeps quiet.
People want to keep their jobs, so they keep quiet and roll with the punches.
USAWP is in turmoil.
The future is bleak unless there are changes and USAWP is governed by individuals who really care about the sport and not just their ego and wallet.

RedCardDad
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby RedCardDad » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 pm

KJE, back to the ODP. I posted on the High School Boys regarding NTSC. Having my son go through it, I was very perplexed as to the selections, not because he was not selected, but because of others who were not. I saw athletes selected who were no where near the talent, experience, and pool awareness than those who were denied. I am not speaking of offense only, but also the other side of the pool where I feel that high level games and championships are won at. I also have spoken to a few parents recently who read their kid's evaluation sheet to me and to be honest, it was pathetic. It sounded like those who filled it out were reaching for something, but could not quite grasp it. I would imagine this would leave the athlete completely confused as to what was the real reason they were not selected. How exactly do you collectively come together and give a true evaluation? Do you feel kids like the one that is mentioned in the HS Boys Polo index get looked over or not even a look? And if so, why should they come back the following years for the same?

H2OPoloMonster
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby H2OPoloMonster » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:19 pm

RedCardDad wrote:Do you feel kids like the one that is mentioned in the HS Boys Polo index get looked over or not even a look? And if so, why should they come back the following years for the same?

It's 5 months from now. Close your eyes and imagine Guy Baker talking to the parents and players. "We're going to start over. Even though you weren't selected for the final selection camp in 2011, you wil be re evaluated and you could make it back to the final selection camp and even the final, final selection camp in 2012. Every year is a new year. All you need to do is fundraise $1,200. Never give up. Some kids don't make it one year and then make it another year."

Or you could, attend the right high school. Join the right club. Go golfing with certain men. Contribute some money on the side. Suggest the possibility that you have people you are connected to that could be big, big supporters of USAWP. Sometimes having your high school coach as a national team coach helps.

Or your son really needs to ask himself, is he really a great player or does he have a great dad who wants him to go through the selection camp for the experience. If you can afford the fundraising, have great neighbors, supportive family members or work with generous people, you might as well go for it. If the process causes too much frustration for your son, continue on with club and high school water polo.

keepingitpolo
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby keepingitpolo » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:11 pm

"The big picture of the weekend was outstanding, a couple of people left a sour taste..."

I think that is almost the quote from Frank McCourt on opening day...

KJE, I know your heart is in the right place and the ODP program is lightyears ahead of where it was a few years ago with the substandard coaching, cronyism and favoritism, but to believe that there is not still a good old boy network is naive, as is the fact that money that goes into the ODP program offsets money that would come out of another general budget if it weren't there, one pocket into the other so to say

RedCardDad
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby RedCardDad » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:27 pm

H20PoloMonster, good feedback and advice but he won't be back, guarantee you that. He knows his place, and he looks at USAWP with a smirk because of what was witnessed. And, I have heard it is no different on the Girls side either. Agree that Club & High School, in that order, are his best pathways. Keepingitpolo, I would bet there are more than a couple people with a sour taste. Call me foolish the first time, call me stupid the second time. Good Luck to you NTSC / ODP.

KJE
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby KJE » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:41 pm

Thank you. You all have proven my point. And, this isn't a job I do because I need it. I love my sport and actively work to make change. I dont hide, my name is public. Im a free thinking person and speak what i believe. Bucketman asked me to respond and I did. I actually know where the money goes because I help decide where to spend it. The conversation you want is one that results in the bashing of USA Water Polo and I won't engage in it because it's not productive. I have always been realistic and have accepted responsibility where necessary. The last post was about Fisher cup, not ODP. I gave my thoughts on that. If a coach wrote a poor evaluation, contact the coach, emails are on the odp website. We have a boys director, his email is public, email him. Regarding the code of conduct, how nice it would be if everyone abided by it and everyone enforced it. I have always made myself available for open dialogue. If you want information about ODP go to the odp website, read the newsletter, or email me.

norcalpologirl
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Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby norcalpologirl » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:57 pm

backofthenet- I have to respond to your assumption I'm complaining about the boys missing the meeting. They missed the last hour of scrimmages, the meeting and team announcements- and got no evaluation or feedback. We'll never know if being able to stay would have made a difference in making the team. Overall, ODP has been a positive experience for my son. But, it has been a very frustrating experience for me as a parent.

BucketMan
Posts: 58
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How are you connected to water polo?: Calling out Chris Ramsey, Guy Baker and the USA WP to take immediate action after all events that occurred at the Fisher Cup 2011

Re: Yet another ODP screw-up

Postby BucketMan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:01 pm

KJE wrote:Thank you. You all have proven my point. And, this isn't a job I do because I need it. I love my sport and actively work to make change. I dont hide, my name is public. Im a free thinking person and speak what i believe. Bucketman asked me to respond and I did. I actually know where the money goes because I help decide where to spend it. The conversation you want is one that results in the bashing of USA Water Polo and I won't engage in it because it's not productive. I have always been realistic and have accepted responsibility where necessary. The last post was about Fisher cup, not ODP. I gave my thoughts on that. If a coach wrote a poor evaluation, contact the coach, emails are on the odp website. We have a boys director, his email is public, email him. Regarding the code of conduct, how nice it would be if everyone abided by it and everyone enforced it. I have always made myself available for open dialogue. If you want information about ODP go to the odp website, read the newsletter, or email me.


USAWP is its own worst enemy. People are reacting to what USAWP does and doesn't do.
USA WP doesn't follow through with the code of ethics but USA WP does know how to deposit checks very well.
Everyone should abide by the Code of Conduct and it is USA WP's responsibility to make sure that it is enforced. When USA WP fails to enforce its own rules, USAWP paints a negative picture of itself. Why in the world do we need USAWP if USAWP does not enforce its own rules?
Why should a ref endanger himself when their is no support by USA WP?
Why would we need to pay yearly dues to USA WP?
USA WP doesn't want to accept responsibility but will accept your money.
Why should any JNT or Youth Parent feel comfortable unless they accompany their child on these trips.
And when a coach writes a poor evaluation (meaning the quality of evaluation-not the quality of the player), a parent can absoutely email that coach and become the target of jokes and the child suffers the consequences.
KJE, you live in a dreamworld. You obviously have been sucked into the Baker and Ramsey dreamworld in order for you to collect a check.
Everyone knows this process is more of a joke.
There's a good old boy network and we all know it.
Stop trying to disspell the truth.
This thread wasn't entitle "Yet another ODP screw-up" because there is only one screw-up.

As someone posted in the Fisher Cup Thread
Otto wrote:So I guess we're all free to punch ODP coaches, right?
That's what Guy Baker's silence tells me.

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