NWL Final Game

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ephpolo
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NWL Final Game

Postby ephpolo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:44 pm

So I watched the Olympic Club-NYAC final on the USA WP youtube channel last night. (Olympic won, 15-13.)

Lots of questionable no-calls on both exclusions and contra fouls. Other than at center, defense seemed pretty loose, except for all the holding.

There was a great array of talent in the pool, but for a fairly close game, it was not very entertaining to watch. An inordinate number of the goals in the game game from "drawing the foul" at 5-6 meters and then scoring on a direct shot. Cupido had 6 goals, and I think at least 4 of them came off ordinary fouls.

Once you have players with shooting skills like Cupido and Roelse and a handful of others who can reliably beat goalies to corners on an uncontested 6-7 meter shot, it's hard to justify risky strategies like driving and passing the ball to center when you can just get fouled and let loose a high percentage shot. I admire the shooting skill these guys show, but it makes for a BORING game to watch.

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2plyBathingSuit
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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby 2plyBathingSuit » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:15 pm

I watched it as well. Hate the "foul and free shot" rule. Sloppy/lazy D (for the most part, shot blocking was dreadful) by both teams and I concur, not a very fun match to watch. More "goal-scoring" doesn't necessarily mean "more exciting" IMO. Are you listening USA WP, FINA and the NHL?

SwimCoach
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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby SwimCoach » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:18 pm

2plyBathingSuit wrote:Hate the "foul and free shot" rule.


Totally agree. Makes some of these games almost unbearable to watch.

improvethegame
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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby improvethegame » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:50 pm

Love everyone's opinion on the "draw a foul" mentality. Cupido is notorious for it and I firmly believe the NCAA created the "simulation" rule due to his persistency in this part of the game. Problem however is not with players such as Cupido, who seek this call. It's is with officials, who become a fan of player's like Cupido, and therefore subconsciously (or consciously) blow the whistle when it is blatant that this is the player's intent (for the whistle to be blow, disregarding almost all other situational options in the pool at that given time (unless time is running out then I guess it makes sense)) AND on the defenders. Defenders, especially at this level know when players are trying to draw a foul and therefore need to show hands and have their teammates who are a stroke away come help. Till officials can realize that it is the offensive player seeking this call, in combination with defenders not being lazy, aggressive offensive players such as Cupido, Roelse, etc. will continue to play the game in accordance with the way the situation is officiated and defended (I would).

Nokiss
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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby Nokiss » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:44 am

Hey ref if you have one more eye you're a cyclops !!!!! He he he he.....

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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby Rbpolo0414 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:15 am

improvethegame wrote:Love everyone's opinion on the "draw a foul" mentality. Cupido is notorious for it and I firmly believe the NCAA created the "simulation" rule due to his persistency in this part of the game. Problem however is not with players such as Cupido, who seek this call. It's is with officials, who become a fan of player's like Cupido, and therefore subconsciously (or consciously) blow the whistle when it is blatant that this is the player's intent (for the whistle to be blow, disregarding almost all other situational options in the pool at that given time (unless time is running out then I guess it makes sense)) AND on the defenders. Defenders, especially at this level know when players are trying to draw a foul and therefore need to show hands and have their teammates who are a stroke away come help. Till officials can realize that it is the offensive player seeking this call, in combination with defenders not being lazy, aggressive offensive players such as Cupido, Roelse, etc. will continue to play the game in accordance with the way the situation is officiated and defended (I would).


I'm not a big fan of the foul and shoot either, and I wouldn't necessarily call it a high percentage shot. It may have been in the national league, but it is not in competitive leagues. But, I would not crucify a player for trying to intentionally get a foul called. It is a necessary strategy at times, even to get fouled and get a free pass to a driver/2m. What i hate is when the player just dips their head in the water and a foul is called. Drives me crazy.

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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby SwimCoach » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:51 am

Rbpolo0414 wrote:
improvethegame wrote:But, I would not crucify a player for trying to intentionally get a foul called. It is a necessary strategy at times, even to get fouled and get a free pass to a driver/2m. What i hate is when the player just dips their head in the water and a foul is called. Drives me crazy.


Perfectly said. You cannot fault the player. He is just taking advantage of the rules that he has been given.

There is nothing more frustrating/aggravating than to watch than a ref award a player a free shot for dipping their head under the water while be guarded at 5M.

ephpolo
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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby ephpolo » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:07 am

But, when in doubt, the rule book specifically instructs referees to "promote offense".

I tend to agree that the best solution is for referees to hold the whistle on this and only call clear fouls. (When the defending player goes for a steal, pulls back, and knocks the ball away, that's a foul.) But in any game with two referees--or tournament with many referees--the desire for consistency generally results in awarding more of these fouls rather then fewer.

I was partly watching this to see how the "faking fouls" rule works under FINA rules, since FINA already has a version of what the NCAA will implement next year. I am certainly not convinced that it helped.

The way to beat this offensive strategy is with more field blocking and less man to man defense to create foul opportunities, which will give us more zone defenses. I'm guessing that doesn't happen at NWL games because these guys are not practicing/playing together enough to allow sophisticated defensive schemes to be put in place.

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2plyBathingSuit
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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby 2plyBathingSuit » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:14 pm

ephpolo wrote:.The way to beat this offensive strategy is with more field blocking and less man to man defense to create foul opportunities, which will give us more zone defenses. I'm guessing that doesn't happen at NWL games because these guys are not practicing/playing together enough to allow sophisticated defensive schemes to be put in place.


The guys at this level know how to defend against this "offensive strategy" (if you must call this an actual strategy). They simply did not choose to execute it. Shot blocking was nonexistent and these guys were either too lazy (or too out of shape) and/or both...to implement your suggested sophisticated defensive schemes. I agree with you that none of these guys practice together with any frequency,...and it shows. They are all divided up amongst various dopey teams hoping to put on a good show. NL may be fun to all those involved, but I'm still trying to figure out what purpose it serves. Perhaps it's strictly for promotional purposes. If that's the case, I have no problem with it. The only positive takeaway I got from all this is USAWP didn't charge admission to see the games in person, had great announcers and broadcasted the final day live on FB. Definitely a step in the right direction.

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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby Rbpolo0414 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:35 pm

2plyBathingSuit wrote:
ephpolo wrote:.The way to beat this offensive strategy is with more field blocking and less man to man defense to create foul opportunities, which will give us more zone defenses. I'm guessing that doesn't happen at NWL games because these guys are not practicing/playing together enough to allow sophisticated defensive schemes to be put in place.


The guys at this level know how to defend against this "offensive strategy" (if you must call this an actual strategy). They simply did not choose to execute it. Shot blocking was nonexistent and these guys were either too lazy (or too out of shape) and/or both...to implement your suggested sophisticated defensive schemes. I agree with you that none of these guys practice together with any frequency,...and it shows. They are all divided up amongst various dopey teams hoping to put on a good show. NL may be fun to all those involved, but I'm still trying to figure out what purpose it serves. Perhaps it's strictly for promotional purposes. If that's the case, I have no problem with it. The only positive takeaway I got from all this is USAWP didn't charge admission to see the games in person, had great announcers and broadcasted the final day live on FB. Definitely a step in the right direction.


All the games are available on you tube. Of the 4 or 5 I watched, the NYAC/USA University semi-final was the most competitve. Very chippy game with Mann and Wolf getting tossed for misconducts. Actually seemed like they were playing for something.

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2plyBathingSuit
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Re: NWL Final Game

Postby 2plyBathingSuit » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:24 pm

Rbpolo0414 wrote:
2plyBathingSuit wrote:
ephpolo wrote:.The way to beat this offensive strategy is with more field blocking and less man to man defense to create foul opportunities, which will give us more zone defenses. I'm guessing that doesn't happen at NWL games because these guys are not practicing/playing together enough to allow sophisticated defensive schemes to be put in place.


The guys at this level know how to defend against this "offensive strategy" (if you must call this an actual strategy). They simply did not choose to execute it. Shot blocking was nonexistent and these guys were either too lazy (or too out of shape) and/or both...to implement your suggested sophisticated defensive schemes. I agree with you that none of these guys practice together with any frequency,...and it shows. They are all divided up amongst various dopey teams hoping to put on a good show. NL may be fun to all those involved, but I'm still trying to figure out what purpose it serves. Perhaps it's strictly for promotional purposes. If that's the case, I have no problem with it. The only positive takeaway I got from all this is USAWP didn't charge admission to see the games in person, had great announcers and broadcasted the final day live on FB. Definitely a step in the right direction.


All the games are available on you tube. Of the 4 or 5 I watched, the NYAC/USA University semi-final was the most competitve. Very chippy game with Mann and Wolf getting tossed for misconducts. Actually seemed like they were playing for something.


Yea, Wolf is playing for Baron's spot and Mann is playing for.."still trying to remain relevant". Mann has a mean disposition...and Wolf probably punched him in the kidney on transition...and acted like "what...who me"? ;-)

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